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Light exposure at night predicts incidence of cardiovascular diseases

medrxiv.org

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Re: Light exposure at night predicts incidence of cardiovascular diseases

#111

Post by NoPicklez »

trollbridge wrote: post #103
ltbarcly3 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does not claim a causal link, just correlation.

"Correlation is not causation!" is one of the sillier things that people say when a study comes out with meaningful, interesting data. If nobody ever finds correlations in the first place, then it won't be possible to figure out causation - and we certainly do want to eventually find more causation for things like heart attacks, don't we?

I agree.

I see it constantly when a study comes out all of these statistics students come out of the wood work and say "Correlation doesn't mean causation" without any other thought.

The study clearly claims only a correlation and absolutely, correlations help focus attention to try and find causal links in the future.

Re: Light exposure at night predicts incidence of cardiovascular diseases

#112

Post by pazimzadeh »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #98
pazimzadeh wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Watson and Crick's paper describing the structure of DNA wasn't peer reviewed. > I'd point out that outliers exist but that was before peer review become so popular what outlier? I just picked a famous example, there are almost infinitely many examples to choose from... >> if you think they're wrong, try it for yourself and publish the results. > Watson and Crick or the article? yes > For a balanced discussion of…

> what outlier? I just picked a famous example, there are almost infinitely many examples to choose from... And there's even more almost infinitely many examples that say peer review is a strong signal. > yes If you were including the former, you were making a very rude argument by implying that anyone that values peer review is rendered invalid by that example. > My whole point is that it's worth discussing the arti…

I replied to the comment "Preprint not peer reviewed." which added nothing and arguably shuts down discussion.

My whole point is that it's ok to find research interesting and discuss it even though it's not peer reviewed yet.

> If you were including the former, you were making a very rude argument by implying that anyone that values peer review is rendered invalid by that example

No, I'm pointing out that not being peer reviewed is not automatically disqualifying and that the real way that or prove/disprove science is by replication attempts, not through peer review.

> And there's even more almost infinitely many examples that say peer review is a strong signal.

So you say, but if you think about it all papers in the ongoing replication crisis are peer reviewed. I know several peer reviewed papers which have inaccurate results, and in my experience having been on both sides of the peer review process I can tell you that it's pretty flawed since very few scientists are willing to invest a lot of their own time to do meticulous unpaid review of other people's work. Meanwhile, science progressed fine before peer review became standard in the 1970's.

> Telling people to shut up about peer review is bad for discussion.

I'll keep that in mind for the future but doesn't apply to anything I said. Maybe you should take a few minutes to read what I actually wrote instead of reacting emotionally

Re: Light exposure at night predicts incidence of cardiovascular diseases

#113

Post by jillesvangurp »

tuukkah wrote: post #81
jillesvangurp wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correlation is not the same as causation. The research indicates a correlation. Assuming causation is a classical mistake with any research. In any case, light sensitivity and sleep patterns are well linked. If you live far away from the equator, you are dealing with pretty short nights half of the year. I lived in Helsinki for a while. That can really mess up your sleep though some people manage to adapt. There's a…

In addition, seasonal disorders are equally common in Madrid and Helsinki, so that cannot explain any difference in sleep disorders. Btw, did you take a D vitamin supplement and use a light therapy lamp in the mornings?

I take vitamin D now but wasn't aware at the time. I never used the light therapy lamp but I had plenty of Italian colleagues that used one. The first time I encountered one of these things, I thought Apple had released some kind of new imac that I hadn't heard off yet. Until somebody explained to me that "no, that's a Philips bright light". Basically you wear some sun goggles and stare at it for fifteen minutes or so while you are blasted with what is indeed very bright.

The dark/light situation never affected me that much. But I could definitely see it in people around me. People from further south have a hard time dealing with darkness. Insomnia is something to guard for.

The Finnish are famously one of the most happy people around. But they also have relatively high suicide rates that spike in spring when after a miserably long winter, the availability of light pushes some people over the edge. As I used to morbidly joke, "Finland is so happy because all the unhappy people keep killing themselves thus removing themselves from these surveils". The Finnish love dark humor like that. This got a chuckle out some of them.

Re: Light exposure at night predicts incidence of cardiovascular diseases

#114

Post by jillesvangurp »

jajko wrote: post #78
jillesvangurp wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correlation is not the same as causation. The research indicates a correlation. Assuming causation is a classical mistake with any research. In any case, light sensitivity and sleep patterns are well linked. If you live far away from the equator, you are dealing with pretty short nights half of the year. I lived in Helsinki for a while. That can really mess up your sleep though some people manage to adapt. There's a…

> I sleep about 2-3 hours less in the summer than in the winter. That's not OK, I don't know a single person affected so (live in cca same latitude as Berlin). Have you tried some radical solutions like good window blinds or similar sun blocking mechanisms? I don't mean some cheap crap that still lets strips of light through, I mean full block. Of course if then some chopper or ambulance wakes you up regardless it do…

I know several people that complain about the exact same thing. You just naturally wake up a lot earlier when it's bright and sunny around 4-5am. Most of nature does the same thing. All the birds get crazy active early morning. The expression "up with the lark" comes from that notion. I have light blocking curtains and they do help a little. But my bedroom faces east and I get the full blast of the Sun in the morning. Somehow this is fine and does not affect my energy levels too much.

These days I don't drink alcohol any more, which has done wonders for my sleep quality. Quitting alcohol works better than almost anything else you can do. Long summer nights of drinking beer in the park (which is one of the perks that Berlin has) are not that great for this. But still, I easily sleep to 9am in the winter and in the summer I usually am awake a lot earlier. I typically stay in bet for a bit.

Re: Light exposure at night predicts incidence of cardiovascular diseases

#115

Post by ltbarcly3 »

trollbridge wrote: post #103
ltbarcly3 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does not claim a causal link, just correlation.

"Correlation is not causation!" is one of the sillier things that people say when a study comes out with meaningful, interesting data. If nobody ever finds correlations in the first place, then it won't be possible to figure out causation - and we certainly do want to eventually find more causation for things like heart attacks, don't we?

I agree, correlation certainly hints at a relationship.

However, I think you are just being triggered by past traumas, because nobody said that here.

Re: Light exposure at night predicts incidence of cardiovascular diseases

#116

Post by tuukkah »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #113
tuukkah wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition, seasonal disorders are equally common in Madrid and Helsinki, so that cannot explain any difference in sleep disorders. Btw, did you take a D vitamin supplement and use a light therapy lamp in the mornings?

I take vitamin D now but wasn't aware at the time. I never used the light therapy lamp but I had plenty of Italian colleagues that used one. The first time I encountered one of these things, I thought Apple had released some kind of new imac that I hadn't heard off yet. Until somebody explained to me that "no, that's a Philips bright light". Basically you wear some sun goggles and stare at it for fifteen minutes or s…

It's true that depression and suicides peak in the spring (Reverse Seasonal Affective Disorder), but that's the case all over the world. Finland is far from the worst in suicide statistics: within Europe, the unfortunate outliers are Slovenia and Lithuania, followed by Hungary. The situation is worse than in Finland also in Belgium, Croatia and Estonia (plus the US). France and Latvia have the same numbers as Finland. Only marginally better are Serbia, Poland, Norway, Sweden, Austria, Czechia and Switzerland.

Meanwhile, the fortunate outliers are more in the south: Cyprus, Greece, Liechtenstein, Türkiye, Italy and Luxembourg.

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