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American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

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Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#111

Post by dotnet00 »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #108
dotnet00 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I broadly agree, though I wonder if part of the reason why Americans think that going to other countries might be a very difficult decision is that if they aren't immigrants or children of immigrants, they have a very limited experience of learning a second or third language and adapting culturally. Learning Spanish in high-school isn't quite the same as learning to function in a new culture and language.

Well, statistically speaking, Americans are more likely to be children or grandchildren of immigrants than, say, Europeans. The language thing is real, and shared with other anglophone countries. Though there is an upside; almost everyone else speaks English, so it's likely that when you get to your new home you'll be able to be understood while you learn their language. I spent a few years in Berlin, and worked ther…

That's a very good point I hadn't considered!

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#112

Post by dotnet00 »

linguae wrote: post #107
dotnet00 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I broadly agree, though I wonder if part of the reason why Americans think that going to other countries might be a very difficult decision is that if they aren't immigrants or children of immigrants, they have a very limited experience of learning a second or third language and adapting culturally. Learning Spanish in high-school isn't quite the same as learning to function in a new culture and language.

I agree. Even for Americans with experiences learning foreign languages and adapting to different cultures, it is not easy living abroad. This is anecdotal, but I am currently in Japan as a visiting researcher at a Japanese university during my summer break; I'm a tenure-track computer science instructor at a Silicon Valley community college. This is my 13th time in Japan and my second-longest stay. I love being in J…

I really appreciate you going into so much detail about your considerations, as Japan is one of the places I'm seriously considering for research after my postdoc. I have some basic Japanese down and am aiming to build up more in the time I have (regardless of if I actually end up going, I spend so much time engaging with anime, japanese music, japanese social media etc, that it would be disrespectful to not put some effort into properly learning the language).

My thoughts are very similar regarding the future of things in the US. Though I feel that the situation may be a bit more bleak, because even if democrats win, I don't really see things changing. They have a penchant for talking a lot and doing very little. As you said, barring a complete repudiation of MAGA, it's going to remain awful for quite a while.

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#113

Post by givemeethekeys »

ribosometronome wrote: post #17
the_snooze wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know where that money is going, but from my own experience, research at universities really isn't supported by tuition money. At least in STEM, PhD students are paid for by grants and contracts that their advisors secured from sources like NSF, DARPA, NIH, NSA, etc. Those are the people actually execute the research. You might want to say tuition should support research, but the reality is that it doesn't.

Why would we want tuition to support research?

Before universities became so expensive - yes, there was a time when they weren't - it made sense for research funding to come from our taxes.

But, if university is going to be so expensive, then we the people, and especially the students are being double-taxed - first for the education, and then to support research.

The irony of ironies is that all that research is going to put all those students that paid for it out of a job!

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#114

Post by dennis_jeeves2 »

andsoitis wrote: post #4

> Many of the most valuable scientific organizations in the world, including NOAA, NASA, the NSF, the CDC, the EPA, and the FDA, I don’t dismiss the premise of the article and I think it is a shame how these organizations are being impacted, but I don’t know that these are the best exemplars of cutting edge science being shut down that will lead to America’s downfall from its scientific perch.

>I don’t know that these are the best exemplars of cutting edge science being shut down that will lead to America’s downfall from its scientific perch.

True, most are just bloated bureaucracies serving their own self interests

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#115

Post by lo_zamoyski »

the_snooze wrote: post #13
givemeethekeys wrote: post #8

Are institutions elsewhere massively increasing funding and positions? Aren't all the non-bankruptible tuition fees providing plenty of funding already? Where's that money going? The football team?

I don't know where that money is going, but from my own experience, research at universities really isn't supported by tuition money. At least in STEM, PhD students are paid for by grants and contracts that their advisors secured from sources like NSF, DARPA, NIH, NSA, etc. Those are the people actually execute the research. You might want to say tuition should support research, but the reality is that it doesn't.

I think we need a lesson in just funding practices here. Tuition is supposed to cover the costs of educating the person paying tuition. It is absurd that students should be saddled with the burden of paying for someone’s research. By what right? This is financial exploitation.

Using taxes is different, as public money and how it is used is the result of either consensus or some authority’s judgement that some public money should be invested in research for the sake of the common good. Even here, the privatization of profits and socialization of losses is criminal, not to mention the gatekeeping of research results funded by public money.

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#116

Post by dangus »

elashri wrote: post #81
dangus wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the cynical student paying tuition in America would ask what the money is actually paying for and why it can’t cover the full cost of programs and research given that it’s so high. Let’s say you go to Ohio State. The out of state (unsubsidized) tuition comes out to about $37,000 for full time tuition. That’s around 108 hours of instruction per year by my estimation. Students are paying $342 per lecture hour,…

Unfortunately the way students and the culture around them require in a university is much more than instruction hours. You need to pqy for all the infrastructure and the amenities that these students except and many will choose based on that. I was talking to a couple of parents during a visit recently and they focused more on what the experience their kids will get at my university. They were mostly not talking abo…

I understand that there is non-academic infrastructure and amenities, but I’m not sure the cost gap is very well explained. I’m paying a multiple orders of magnitude cost premium on my professor’s wage depending on the size of my class and somehow I’m supposed to believe that it isn’t sufficient to pay for some amenities, building maintenance, and other reasonable overhead?

Planet fitness can make a killing on $20/month gym memberships but supposedly the campus recreation center is the bleeding me dry?

This also doesn’t explain how my online state school only had a slight discount over in-person instruction to take classes online. Like I said in my first comment, my professors only performed live instruction for an hour a week and taught with recycled and off-the-shelf materials.

Unsubsidized tuition room and board is higher than the median individual salary.

I think that if there was some kind of mandate or incentive to reduce costs that we would suddenly see cost reduction with very little compromise. But as it stands, everyone involved is incentivized to keep prices as high as possible.

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#117

Post by mcphage »

betaby wrote: post #104
mcphage wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not the brightest lightbulbs out there That’s true—all the brightest bulbs are working at FAANG companies building advertising delivery services, or at Fintech companies figuring out how to gamble faster.

Unironically true.

Oh, I know it's true—but it means that complaining "the brightest lightbulbs" aren't working for the government science organizations is stupid, because all the "brightest lightbulbs" are doing is making life worse for everyone else, so who the fuck cares about them?

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#118

Post by dahart »

SailingCactus33 wrote: post #83
rybosome wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot for the life of me think of what you are referring to. If it’s COVID-related mandates like vaccines and lockdowns, then surely it’s obvious that NASA had nothing to do with that? There is no single issue that I can see linking all of these science organizations together. Even if it’s about budget, there are bigger targets.

They went off mission. Here is a NASA example that might help linking it together: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11457489/

I’m confused by this comment, do you want to elaborate? Only the thirteenth author has an association with NASA at all, and that author lists two associations. This paper is primarily from U. Maryland and MIT. Why do you feel like this paper reflects to any significant degree on NASA’s mission?

What is NASA’s mission in your mind? What is the point of what they’re doing if not to use science and the knowledge resulting from practicing science to benefit humanity? NASA’s web pages, for one, do happen to say exactly that in multiple ways. Is there some congressional funding agreement you’re aware of that limits or prevents NASA from engaging in certain scientific topics?

Also what problem do have with this paper? It seems like it’s saying something that’s widely known and non-controversial. It maybe adds new kinds of data and support to the thing we already knew, but it’s largely a meta review of many other papers that also demonstrate what we already know, that it’s common for poorer people to live in worse conditions than richer people.

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#119

Post by stonogo »

throwawaymaths wrote: post #73
stonogo wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then I have trouble believing you understand how cutting-edge research happens, because these organizations are the ones who fund it. The missing piece here is DOE Office of Science, but they're coming for that too.

you ever worked with DOE office of science or anyone at the national renewable energy labs? not the brightest lightbulbs out there.

But that's where the funding is (was). The user facilities attract researchers from all over the world, and make sure that research happens in America. Instrument development happens in partnership with the labs for the same reason. If you want research to happen in America, this is how you get that. If you want a dick-measuring contest, I guess funding these agencies isn't important.

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#120

Post by illiac786 »

dotnet00 wrote: post #79

This has definitely been my feeling too as a fresh postdoc. For a while it has been feeling more and more like the US isn't worth the effort and stress. Sure, I make more money here, but is it worth dealing with nonsensical immigration policies, haphazard funding cuts, crumbling infrastructure, completely random rulemaking, and demoralized colleagues facing severe and nonsensical budget cuts when various other countr…

I mostly agree, except on Trump being a straw. He is more like the truck full of shit. Not saying it wasn’t bad before already, but he made a significant (negative) difference.
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