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2025 Iberia Blackout Report [pdf]

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Re: 2025 Iberia Blackout Report [pdf]

#111

Post by cyberax »

z_rex wrote: post #55
londons_explore wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nor are brief periods of multi-gigawatt draw/dumping as needed. Actually this is typically an issue for grid batteries. Spinning generators can easily briefly go to 10x the rated current for a second or so to smooth out big anomalies. Stationary batteries inverters can't do 10x current spikes ever - the max they can get to is more like 1.2x for a few seconds. That means you end up needing a lot of batteries to prov…

A spinning generator is not outputting 10x it's rated current over any significant amount of time. You can only add so much steam or fuel to a turbine, and the rotor has a lot of inertia, but not enough to account for 10X its rated capacity for a second. The electrical switchyards would trip nearly instantaneously if it's connected plant output 10X its rated input.

A properly running grid with spinning generators never needs the 10x rated current. More importantly, oscillations are dampened by the rotating masses.

Re: 2025 Iberia Blackout Report [pdf]

#112

Post by jakewins »

amluto wrote: post #104
diggan wrote: post #35

Seems the money shot starts at page 131: > The ultimate cause of the peninsular electrical zero on April 28th was a phenomenon of overvoltages in the form of a "chain reaction" in which high voltages cause generation disconnections, which in turn causes new increases in voltage and thus new disconnections, and so on. > 1. The system showed insufficient dynamic voltage control capabilities sufficient to maintain stabl…

I’m a bit mystified as to how the grid controls voltage at all. The non-renewable plants follow the rules here: https://www.boe.es/buscar/doc.php?id=BOE-A-2000-5204 7.1(b) seems to be saying that generators connected at 200kV adjust their reactive power generation/absorption in real time according to the voltage they observe, based on a lookup table provided by the grid operator. This seems sort of sensible according…

I don't claim to know the details of reactive power management, but the primary mechanisms for grid stability in the EU is the "cascade" of services the TSOs procures:

- Fast Frequency Response (FFR), sub-second power adjustment following frequency table

- Frequency Containment Reserve (FCR), ~second power adjustment following frequency table

- Automatic Frequency Restoration Reserve (aFRR), ~second energy production following TSO setpoint signal

- Manual Frequency Restoration Reserve, ~minute energy production following TSO activation signals

My understanding is the primary failure in Spain was that 9 separate synchronous plants that had sold aFRR(?) to the TSO then failed to deliver, so when the TSO algorithms tried to adjust the oscillations, nothing happened. Everything else was kinda "as designed".

Re: 2025 Iberia Blackout Report [pdf]

#113

Post by cyberax »

AnotherGoodName wrote: post #10

Reads very similar to some blackouts we had in Australia. Weakly connected grids with vast geographical distances leading to oscillations that took down the grid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_South_Australian_blackout Completely solved with lithium based grid storage at key locations btw. This grid storage has also been massively profitable for it's owners https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_Reserve#R…

> Completely solved with lithium based grid storage at key locations btw.

That's because Australia has a moderate amount of renewables and prefers to burn fossil fuels. Right now, around 25% of the electricity in Australia is generated by solar or wind.

Spain is past 50% of renewable generation, and their problems are much bigger.

Re: 2025 Iberia Blackout Report [pdf]

#114

Post by p1dda »

rcxdude wrote: post #78
rocqua wrote: post #60

So, the problem was a local voltage oscilation, where the high voltages caused generators to shut off. How do these oscilations start? I understand that voltage isn't necessarily equal across the network, where frequency is. But that only allows oscillating, it doesn't cause it. Is this a basis inductor capacitor oscillation? Is it the small delay in inverters between measuring voltage and regulating their output? (s…

Sort of: For the oscillations, the European grid in general is large enough that the time it takes for the energy to flow (at some fraction of the speed of light!) from one side of it to the other is not negligible: it's not a case of delays at the power plant, but delays in the network itself which can cause the various natural and artificial feedback loops in the circuit to start to become unstable and oscillate. I…

pg 132 "2.1 The characteristics of the first large oscillation (12:03) indicate that it is a phenomenon generated within the Iberian Peninsula. It is an atypical oscillation, with a frequency of 0.6 Hz, and its origin has been correlated with the operation of a facility. In addition, the system operator has identified an atypical behavior in an installation in the wind farm."

Could this have been a deliberate attempt to crash the grid?

Re: 2025 Iberia Blackout Report [pdf]

#115

Post by adev_ »

AnotherGoodName wrote: post #14
londons_explore wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nor are brief periods of multi-gigawatt draw/dumping as needed. Actually this is typically an issue for grid batteries. Spinning generators can easily briefly go to 10x the rated current for a second or so to smooth out big anomalies. Stationary batteries inverters can't do 10x current spikes ever - the max they can get to is more like 1.2x for a few seconds. That means you end up needing a lot of batteries to prov…

Collectively Australia's battery storage systems will be able to beat any single power plant for peak output in Australia once fully built out based on pure numbers. But for these sorts of grid oscillations the more important thing is the localization of generation. Which obviously favours the batteries over large centralized power stations in any case.

Being enthusiastic about battery technologies is one thing, spreading misinformation to support someone convictions is an other.

What causes the Iberian blackout is excessive reactive power and a lack of compensation at a given time (due to multiple factors).

Compensation of reactive power has strictly nothing to do with localization of generation. It barely even can be assimilated to oscillations

That's complete garbage and it shows mainly you do not seem to know much about Electricity power in general.

Re: 2025 Iberia Blackout Report [pdf]

#116

Post by Gud »

zekrioca wrote: post #76
z_rex wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A spinning generator is not outputting 10x it's rated current over any significant amount of time. You can only add so much steam or fuel to a turbine, and the rotor has a lot of inertia, but not enough to account for 10X its rated capacity for a second. The electrical switchyards would trip nearly instantaneously if it's connected plant output 10X its rated input.

Let alone the transmission lines totally catching fire after a 10X output increase.

Where are you getting this information from?

Although I’m hardly an expert on power lines(my factory produces HV switchgear), a 1s short circuit current rating of 10x(actually more) is normal, standard to IEC norms.

Re: 2025 Iberia Blackout Report [pdf]

#117

Post by bob1029 »

AnotherGoodName wrote: post #40
ajross wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That... doesn't sound correct. Inverters are the cheap part, you can literally wire as many as you want in parallel. Batteries have immense power availability, with most chemistries you can trivially deliver the entire capacity in half an hour or so (more like 5 minutes with lithium cells). Basically I'm dubious. I'm sure there are grids somewhere that have misprovisioned their inverter capacity, but I don't buy that…

Agreed. The relatively small battery substation linked above can output 2GW of equivalent inertia generation (a measure to align batteries to inertial power systems) when needed. That's an entire power station they can match for short periods of time. Link: https://www.energymagazine.com.au/sa-approves-world-first-ba... Australia's largest power plant has 2.9GW of inertial generation assuming all generators are runni…

The article does not describe an inertia constant. Without the time component, any comparison to traditional systems is meaningless. Inertia is a measure of energy, not power.

Large spinning masses can provide several seconds of inertia. For 2GW of traditional turbine, you would have between 10-20 gigawatt-seconds of energy that is instantly available at any moment to resist RoCoF.

Re: 2025 Iberia Blackout Report [pdf]

#118

Post by madaxe_again »

diggan wrote: post #35

Seems the money shot starts at page 131: > The ultimate cause of the peninsular electrical zero on April 28th was a phenomenon of overvoltages in the form of a "chain reaction" in which high voltages cause generation disconnections, which in turn causes new increases in voltage and thus new disconnections, and so on. > 1. The system showed insufficient dynamic voltage control capabilities sufficient to maintain stabl…

I’ve just read the whole shebang.

While the overall reason for the mass failure you cite is correct - a cascading failure - the interesting bit here are the oscillations that lead to it.

It looks very much like this was driven by algorithmic volatility trading of electricity spots - overproduction, price goes negative, buys placed, production ramps in response to rising price, price rises, sells placed, production falls due to falling price. The period of the oscillations in the grid seen before the blackout suggest a relatively slow cycle, and what they describe in the report sounds very much like this was an interaction between price-driven supply and real world supply.

It does speak to there being inadequate storage available on the grid to smooth demand and therefore pricing, but it also suggests that in certain conditions a harmonic can be set up between the market and price-driven production with catastrophic consequences.

Re: 2025 Iberia Blackout Report [pdf]

#119

Post by IndrekR »

outside1234 wrote: post #93
londons_explore wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nor are brief periods of multi-gigawatt draw/dumping as needed. Actually this is typically an issue for grid batteries. Spinning generators can easily briefly go to 10x the rated current for a second or so to smooth out big anomalies. Stationary batteries inverters can't do 10x current spikes ever - the max they can get to is more like 1.2x for a few seconds. That means you end up needing a lot of batteries to prov…

What batteries CAN do however is go from 0W to their capacity watts in milliseconds. It is their instant-on ability that is disruptive.

Not only from 0W, but from negative capacity (max charging power) to positive capacity (max discharging power).

Re: 2025 Iberia Blackout Report [pdf]

#120

Post by baq »

eldaisfish wrote: post #44
baq wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously I’m as good of a grid operator as I was a stealth bomber expert on the weekend, but superficially that just doesn’t seem right. Maybe I’m underestimating how much spinning mass would be required, but that still qualifies as ‘not enough was present’.

please can you explain what doesn't seem right?

They admit they had plants offline when they should be available and then they say it wouldn't matter and the grid would've collapsed anyway..? Either they're in a very very bad spot and stop short of saying it outright in the report or it would've averted the disaster if the not-spinning mass was spinning as it should have.
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