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Wayland is growing up. and now we don't have a choice

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Re: Wayland is growing up. and now we don't have a choice

#111

Post by dang »

ThrowOregonAway wrote: post #2

XLibre talk is banned here, we DO have a choice.

It'd be odd indeed if we'd banned something we hadn't heard of.

After looking into it, I think what happened is that a few submissions were flagged by users, for the cromulent reason that the articles weren't very substantive.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44332956

Edit: There also seems to be an aura of flamedrama around it. I didn't look closely, so I may be wrong, but if that's true, it's another reason why HN users would (cromulently) flag it.

Re: Wayland is growing up. and now we don't have a choice

#112

Post by ChocolateGod »

holowoodman wrote: post #108
ChocolateGod wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, exactly. And Wayland ignored it for years, from the start, and only later slowly adopted it as an extension. DRM is not part of Wayland, and Wayland does not use DRM. Wayland is the protocol between the display server and application, DRM is a functionality provided by the kernel to allow user space applications to use and share graphics hardware. The display server can use DRM, as will applications wanting to…

https://wayland.app/protocols/drm-lease-v1

Did you even read the use case for this? or just Googled 'Wayland DRM' and post the first link?

When VR headsets are exposed to user space, they appear as displays and subsequently the display server will control them (which isn't useful), this is just a protocol that allows clients (like games, SteamVR) to have control transferred so they can drive the VR headset instead. This is because multiple applications are not allowed to control the same display on the Linux kernel at the same time.

It does not make DRM/DRI part of Wayland. Again, it goes back to my original comment of "you use Wayland to communicate with the display server"

IIRC GNOME originally wanted to do this over Dbus, but there was opposition.

Re: Wayland is growing up. and now we don't have a choice

#113

Post by const_cast »

LightHugger wrote: post #105
const_cast wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But we did do exactly that with X for literal decades. Then the developers of Xorg said "fuck this". I mean, where does the bus stop?

This didn't happen because redhat/ibm/microsoft took control of the project and decided they wanted to kill it. They have said this directly on social media that this is their explicit goal so it's not as if this is a conspiracy of some sort, it's just their publicly stated goal. They then deliberately stopped merging changes and left it to rot until the contributors got frustrated enough to fork it. Now a massive ga…

> Now a massive gamergate-esque coordinated character assassination campaign against the creator of xlibre

Sigh. People repeating absolutely batshit things people say right back to them is not character assassination.

If you want to talk about anti-woke this Make X11 Great Again that then go for it. But you sound crazy. Okay? You sound like there's something wrong with you. So when people are off-put by this super weird and unnecessary politicization that's your problem.

It is not cancel culture. If you don't want to be accountable for the things you've said then I don't know what to tell you. That's not compatible with our current reality, so until inter-dimensional travel is invented, you're gonna be in for a rough ride.

Re: Wayland is growing up. and now we don't have a choice

#114

Post by LightHugger »

const_cast wrote: post #113
LightHugger wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This didn't happen because redhat/ibm/microsoft took control of the project and decided they wanted to kill it. They have said this directly on social media that this is their explicit goal so it's not as if this is a conspiracy of some sort, it's just their publicly stated goal. They then deliberately stopped merging changes and left it to rot until the contributors got frustrated enough to fork it. Now a massive ga…

> Now a massive gamergate-esque coordinated character assassination campaign against the creator of xlibre Sigh. People repeating absolutely batshit things people say right back to them is not character assassination. If you want to talk about anti-woke this Make X11 Great Again that then go for it. But you sound crazy. Okay? You sound like there's something wrong with you. So when people are off-put by this super we…

It absolutely is character assassination in the context of what's been happening. News sites that have praised the xlibre author for countless articles are suddenly doing a 180 because the people who pay their bills are the same people running wayland and embroiled in anti discrimination lawsuits for abusing DEI to hurt people.

That you care more about "make x11 great again" more than red hat and IBM perpetrating actual cases of racist discrimination tells me a lot about you. You're either in an echo chamber and do not have all the information or are deliberately choosing to ignore it. Either way you aren't in the morally just position you think you are.

Re: Wayland is growing up. and now we don't have a choice

#115

Post by LightHugger »

ChocolateGod wrote: post #106
LightHugger wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This didn't happen because redhat/ibm/microsoft took control of the project and decided they wanted to kill it. They have said this directly on social media that this is their explicit goal so it's not as if this is a conspiracy of some sort, it's just their publicly stated goal. They then deliberately stopped merging changes and left it to rot until the contributors got frustrated enough to fork it. Now a massive ga…

Why would Microsoft want to kill X? It kept back the Linux desktop. > Now a massive gamergate-esque coordinated character assassination campaign against the creator of xlibre is ongoing even from publications that have many previous articles praising the same contributor at length Half the drama is the Xlibre guy involving politics

the xlibre guy said "no dei" in a fork that is separating from a company embroiled in racist discrimination lawsuits for using DEI to hurt real people.

Is that really involving politics? In a way it is, sure, but again, unlike red hat, IBM and friends, he has pledged not to discriminate against contributors on the basis of politics. Red hat and IBM openly continue to discriminate against contributors and employees on not only the basis of politics but skin color as well. They wield their CoC like a cudgel to get rid of anyone they don't like with no semblance of fair enforcement. It's a series of struggle sessions, man.

So, if you're accusing him of being political, but you're not accusing red hat of being political, you're probably not really accusing him of being political, you're probably just either woefully misinformed or outright racist.

Can you explain why you think someone who pledges not to discriminate against people for politics (while forking from a corp that does, it's not just a random comment, it's part of the reason a fork is needed) is more political than a company that actively discriminates against people for politics and also their skin color?

Re: Wayland is growing up. and now we don't have a choice

#116

Post by const_cast »

LightHugger wrote: post #114
const_cast wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now a massive gamergate-esque coordinated character assassination campaign against the creator of xlibre Sigh. People repeating absolutely batshit things people say right back to them is not character assassination. If you want to talk about anti-woke this Make X11 Great Again that then go for it. But you sound crazy. Okay? You sound like there's something wrong with you. So when people are off-put by this super we…

It absolutely is character assassination in the context of what's been happening. News sites that have praised the xlibre author for countless articles are suddenly doing a 180 because the people who pay their bills are the same people running wayland and embroiled in anti discrimination lawsuits for abusing DEI to hurt people. That you care more about "make x11 great again" more than red hat and IBM perpetrating act…

It's not about being morally just, it's about taking accountability for the things you say.

Everyone is allowed to say off-putting things. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to deduce that making politically-charged statements might make people a bit weary of your project. That's his prerogative - but, it's not character assassination to repeat words back to people. I'm very tired of pretending it is. I find it incredibly immature when people want to play victim for being portrayed how they themselves seemingly want to be portrayed. You want to be politically charged? Bon apetite.

Re: Wayland is growing up. and now we don't have a choice

#117

Post by LightHugger »

const_cast wrote: post #116
LightHugger wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It absolutely is character assassination in the context of what's been happening. News sites that have praised the xlibre author for countless articles are suddenly doing a 180 because the people who pay their bills are the same people running wayland and embroiled in anti discrimination lawsuits for abusing DEI to hurt people. That you care more about "make x11 great again" more than red hat and IBM perpetrating act…

It's not about being morally just, it's about taking accountability for the things you say. Everyone is allowed to say off-putting things. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to deduce that making politically-charged statements might make people a bit weary of your project. That's his prerogative - but, it's not character assassination to repeat words back to people. I'm very tired of pretending it is. I find it i…

"repeat words back to people" isn't the problem here though anyways, it's dishonest to pretend that's what matters here. not the mass bans, censorship, one sided articles, misinformational misinterpretations, zero acknowledgement about faces, and the insane double standards where on one side you have a guy who is "political" by saying he's anti dei and welcomes everyone of various politics and identities, and on the other hand you have the DEI corporation currently embroiled in multiple lawsuits for discriminating against real people not just based on politics but their skin color. It's an insane double standard.

Re: Wayland is growing up. and now we don't have a choice

#118

Post by rcarmo »

There is a missing piece in Wayland tha I’m worried about—or rather, a key functionality that will need to be sorted out: Remote Desktop, but not in the sense of access to an existing display — rather, fully in-memory accelerated compositing for multi-user, concurrent desktop sessions to the same machine. FreeRDP has been doing some work on that, but we need a mature Xrdp replacement and I don’t think that is around just yet.

Re: Wayland is growing up. and now we don't have a choice

#119

Post by happymellon »

LightHugger wrote: post #105
const_cast wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But we did do exactly that with X for literal decades. Then the developers of Xorg said "fuck this". I mean, where does the bus stop?

This didn't happen because redhat/ibm/microsoft took control of the project and decided they wanted to kill it. They have said this directly on social media that this is their explicit goal so it's not as if this is a conspiracy of some sort, it's just their publicly stated goal. They then deliberately stopped merging changes and left it to rot until the contributors got frustrated enough to fork it. Now a massive ga…

> Now a massive gamergate-esque coordinated character assassination campaign against the creator of xlibre is ongoing even from publications

The ranting anti-vaxer racist did it to themselves.

Re: Wayland is growing up. and now we don't have a choice

#120

Post by vidarh »

const_cast wrote: post #100
vidarh wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The protocol is trivially extensible, and have had plenty of extensions that has significant altered how it behaves. Fixing X in a step wise manner wod have been perfectly doable. The problem is that the Wayland proponents didn't just want to fix the things there was agreement was broken, but also wanted to actively break things that would cause an uproar.

But we did do exactly that with X for literal decades. Then the developers of Xorg said "fuck this". I mean, where does the bus stop?

For literal decades they proved how malleable the protocol is, yes. Then they decided to ignore how malleable the protocol is instead of even trying to e.g. start by deprecating obsolete functionality and disabling it in future versions.

When XRender was introduced, for example, was the perfect time to deprecate server-side font-rendering. It's trivial to shim on the client side if anyone cared about the legacy functionality, and it takes a trivial amount of code to switch to using XRender instead for it instead (been there, done that, written a font renderer).

There's been plenty of opportunities to gut the legacy parts of the protocol that way, and reduce the complexity.

Grouping the main set of extensions and declaring that if the server reports a certain version number or above they

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