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Oklo, the Earth's Two-billion-year-old only Known Natural Nuclear Reactor (2018)

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111–120 of 124 posts

Re: Oklo, the Earth's Two-billion-year-old only Known Natural Nuclear Reactor (2018)

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cheap until it isn't. I wonder what has been the actual cost per kWh of nuclear power in Japan once factored in the price of Fukushima's disaster (between 200 and 600 billion dollars).

The cost you cite sounds more like the cost of the earthquake and tsunami, rather than the Daiichi reactor meltdown cost. Even if it were, in the time limit safety increases, such costs decrease, more so with more development. More broadly, nuclear looks expensive not because it's unproductive — but because standard asset pricing discounts its most valuable feature: time. Dense, stable power for centuries gives a low…

No no, that's the cost of the nuclear plant disaster cleanup. Current estimate about $200 billion, some estimate it much higher. Consider that there are still 300 square kms of territory designated as "difficult to return". That's the size of a big city- Paris or Milan. The cost of a disaster depends on the area that is rendered uninhabitable- imagine Paris, London or New York being declared off-limits for a century, the cost would be astronomical.

I'm not against nuclear energy in principle, it just seems to be a technology that instead of becoming cheaper becomes more expensive, has enormous costs beyond energy production (decommissioning, waste management) and is subject to extremely rare failures that threaten to evaporate any gain in the previous decades or centuries. I don't even think it's that dangerous for people- victims of Chernobyl and Fukushima have been a tiny number. It just seems economically not worth it.

Re: Oklo, the Earth's Two-billion-year-old only Known Natural Nuclear Reactor (2018)

#112

Richard Rhodes brought this up in an interview. He made it a point for critics who say nuclear waste can't be safely disposed of through burial. Well, we have pretty good natural evidence that nuclear fission products can remain buried and undisturbed for a pretty long time!

I don't disagree that nuclear waste can be disposed of safely under good conditions[1]. But I think a fallacy to claim that natural phenomena should inherently be considered "environmentally safe" in human terms. There are coal seam fires that have been going on for centuries and the pollution of these is just as bad as the pollution generated by human created coal mine fires (and that's truly awful, a significant so…

>> The problem with nuclear reactors isn't that their pollution couldn't disposed of with ideal methods but that when they run by for-profit corporations, you will always have the company skirting the edge of what's safe 'cause corporations just go bankrupt with catastrophic events and so their risk-reward behavior isn't the risk-reward optima for humanity.

Chernobyl was state run.

Re: Oklo, the Earth's Two-billion-year-old only Known Natural Nuclear Reactor (2018)

#113
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cesium in spent fuel is not in the form of cesium metal. The cesium there is already oxidized to the +1 oxidation state, as it is in cesium salts.

This is what I get for giving people the benefit of the doubt. Here's some text from that PDF the GP linked: > Cesium will be the primary radionuclide released in a nuclear waste accident because it is present in what is called the fuel-clad gap. This gap is the space between the fuel pellets and the inside wall of the metal tube that contains the fuel. This “gap cesium” can be released in any event where the claddin…

The idea that cesium is present in metallic form is chemically very dubious.

Cesium is extremely reactive, as is noted. In particular, it will readily reduce U(+4) to U(+3). Nuclear reactor fuel is primarily uranium dioxide, so there is ample material there for this putative metallic cesium to react with. Cesium is the most electropositive element, so it will give electrons to (reduce) almost anything.

The state of cesium in the vapor gap will be relatively volatile cesium compounds, like cesium iodide. The core temperature of a uranium dioxide fuel pellet greatly exceeds the normal boiling point of this salt.

Re: Oklo, the Earth's Two-billion-year-old only Known Natural Nuclear Reactor (2018)

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it wrong?

Talk about missing the point. Why should I spend my time fact checking the output of a glorified, stochastic parrot?

Because your competitors are using it, and they are going to flatten you.

Effective tool use is kind of a big deal.

Re: Oklo, the Earth's Two-billion-year-old only Known Natural Nuclear Reactor (2018)

#115
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its impressive the amount of clean, cheap energy that's been locked away because of fearmongering tales from well before many were even alive.

It is natural and reasonable to be of two minds on the matter. Surely that’s not controversial.

All power generation has tradeoffs. I like nuclear because it can be small, tucked away, generate _lots_ of power, and has few day to day environmental risks. Spent fuel is an issue, but there's very likely a virtuous cycle that will evolve if we start ramping up nukes again. Dry cask storage is no big deal IMHO, and something will likely evolve that either can use spent fuel or can deal with it better.

Re: Oklo, the Earth's Two-billion-year-old only Known Natural Nuclear Reactor (2018)

#116
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its impressive the amount of clean, cheap energy that's been locked away because of fearmongering tales from well before many were even alive.

Cheap until it isn't. I wonder what has been the actual cost per kWh of nuclear power in Japan once factored in the price of Fukushima's disaster (between 200 and 600 billion dollars).

Maybe don’t build a nuclear reactor near the ocean in a place famous for tsunamis?

Re: Oklo, the Earth's Two-billion-year-old only Known Natural Nuclear Reactor (2018)

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Nuclear power is an incredible technology, but understand that the nuclear industry has done little to earn trust. Just feels like an abusive ex plastered on the porch shouting "it'll be different this time I've changed" and doesn't inspire confidence. > Care to elaborate on what you mean by this? Because even if you include Chernobyl, nuclear power is one of the safest form of energy generation: https://ourworldi…

> I grew up in a place and time where nuclear waste was routinely dumped, records lost, EPA government consultants lied, and people got sick. Nobody was held accountable other than token fines. Can you provide even one example where nuclear waste from power generation - not nuclear weapons production - got people sick in the United States?

[deleted]

Re: Oklo, the Earth's Two-billion-year-old only Known Natural Nuclear Reactor (2018)

#118
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its impressive the amount of clean, cheap energy that's been locked away because of fearmongering tales from well before many were even alive.

Cheap until it isn't. I wonder what has been the actual cost per kWh of nuclear power in Japan once factored in the price of Fukushima's disaster (between 200 and 600 billion dollars).

Agree - there are places that maybe should consider other methods of power generation.

Upper Midwest USA / Middle Canada? probably pretty darn safe.

Re: Oklo, the Earth's Two-billion-year-old only Known Natural Nuclear Reactor (2018)

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's...not a very good point.

It is. Presumably your fear is that uranium from spent fuel might somehow contaminate water supplies, and cause illness. But we already monitor water for contamination from naturally occurring uranium, and have the infrastructure to remove it. So what happens if uranium from nuclear waste somehow works its way into the water supply? We'll detect it and remove it in water treatment, just like how we remove contaminati…

It's a terrible argument because it burdens someone else with the risk of cleaning up the mess.

Re: Oklo, the Earth's Two-billion-year-old only Known Natural Nuclear Reactor (2018)

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's been done before, it's not revolutionary engineering: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onkalo_spent_nuclear_fuel_re ... It's not even open yet.

Finland has been operating two other sites for decades: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44332413

Those aren't for reactor waste.
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