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Windows 10 EOL

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Re: Windows 10 EOL

#111

Post by jeroenhd »

1231231231e wrote: post #92
smarx007 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, there is nothing wrong with that if you either: 1. Disconnect that computer from the internet. 2. Are happy to have your computer infected and join a botnet.

Can someone who has knowledge about this explain how a PC with "unsupported OS" will actually get attacked just by web browsing and being connected to the internet? Your PC will always be behind NAT, it'll never have a public IP, therefore someone port scanning it can be ruled out unless it's maybe some infected device on the local network? It's normal in modern web browsers that you can just break out of the javascr…

If you open a browser, you expose yourself to other servers. Same with opening files you download. Plus, with exploits like NAT slipstreaming, your computer can be exposed to arbitrary packets from anywhere on the internet as soon as any device you own loads and ad.

Microsoft at some point had a bug where a single packet could take over the entire kernel. I think it was a bug somewhere in the IP stack (something related to fragmentation in IPv6 I think?). Linux had similar issues.

If the built-in JPEG viewer or h.264 decoder or whatever component you use contains a bug, your computer can get infected. That also goes for things like preview generators and file indexers that run even if you don't open the file.

As much as the web seems to have consumed everything, there are still plenty of files people open.

In practice, you'll probably be fine as long as you keep your browser up to date and use up-to-date third-party software to open most files. At some point Chrome and Firefox stop supporting your system, though, and that's when infection suddenly becomes real easy.

Re: Windows 10 EOL

#112

Post by jeroenhd »

candiddevmike wrote: post #6
v9v wrote: post #2

Why do people keep bringing up this e-waste argument and act like they have to throw their Windows 10 computers into the garbage? It's not like the operating system stops working the second official support ends.

Maybe they're throwing them in the garbage and getting Macs? When the choice is leave the ecosystem or embrace 1984: the desktop, it seems like a worthwhile complaint. Microsoft burned everyone's trust by thinking they can charge money for an OS AND sell your data.

Apple also arbitrarily drops OS support on devices. On mobile devices they used to be the leading edge, but on desktop they end support faster than Microsoft does. Microsoft guaranteed 10 years of support when Windows 10 launched, but Apple is dropping support for their 2020 Intel Macs after this year. Plus, in terms of "1984", Apple's notarization system is as bad as it gets, and it's even harder to turn off than Windows Smartscreen.

Apple does have better speakers, though. So that's a nice plus.

Re: Windows 10 EOL

#113

Post by jeroenhd »

mongol wrote: post #101

What do you think about running Windows 10 in a VM after EOL? For example, I have special accounting software I run in a VM a few times per month, on my Linux desktop. Are there any special considerations I should be aware of?

Hospitals run Windows XP for their MRI machines. As long as you don't open files from the internet and don't use the VM to browse the web, you can use your accounting software for decades to come without any risk.

Re: Windows 10 EOL

#114

Post by UncleSlacky »

oneZergArmy wrote: post #26

I'd love it if manufacturers would unlock the BIOS of business-grade laptops when Windows 10 ends, but I don't have any hope. Two of my laptops will just.. die, as I can't install Linux on them.

If you look around on the net, you'll probably find cracks for your laptop BIOSes - I did for an old Fujitsu Siemens Lifebook, for example.

Re: Windows 10 EOL

#115

Post by frollogaston »

akimbostrawman wrote: post #98
frollogaston wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like I said, the devices at home are tiny. Sum up everything if you want, home + work + idk a second job, it's very little.

if you think a single medium sized organization killing 5 digit amount of perfectly usable hardware (these are average sized ~3kg desktop pcs) simply because of software is very little there is no argument that could convince you. try counting that up in your head only for your city (the whole world runs windows!) to decide if that is still "very little".

The numbers are only meaningful per person. If you want to multiply by 10K, you have to multiply their other waste too for comparison. Also I said laptop+phone originally, not desktop, in part because not very many people have desktops.

Re: Windows 10 EOL

#116

Post by jeroenhd »

DanAtC wrote: post #3

Windows 10 IoT Enterprise LTSC is supported until 2032, thankfully. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/iot/iot-enterprise...

Windows LTSC can cause problems with some software, though, as some components and services aren't installed or loaded by default. Plus, licenses are expensive as hell.

If you want to save a buck or are going to pirate the OS anyway, stick with the normal Windows 10 updates first and then downgrade to the stripped-down LTSC versions when that runs out in late 2027.

Re: Windows 10 EOL

#117

Post by 1231231231e »

frollogaston wrote: post #108
1231231231e wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can someone who has knowledge about this explain how a PC with "unsupported OS" will actually get attacked just by web browsing and being connected to the internet? Your PC will always be behind NAT, it'll never have a public IP, therefore someone port scanning it can be ruled out unless it's maybe some infected device on the local network? It's normal in modern web browsers that you can just break out of the javascr…

A lot of these are non-exe files, like images/video, crafted to execute arbitrary code through some bug in outdated software that opens them. Could be a web browser or something else. It does take a while for an OS to be so old that browsers don't support it anymore, but sufficiently old ones are vulnerable to known spectre exploits breaking out of the JS sandbox for example. Or random other browser features can be e…

With outdated browsers it does make senese. A bit more surprising is the image or video decoding exploit, considering that I'd assume those would usually be done in hardware rather than by some userspace or OS level code.

Re: Windows 10 EOL

#118

Post by frollogaston »

1231231231e wrote: post #117
frollogaston wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of these are non-exe files, like images/video, crafted to execute arbitrary code through some bug in outdated software that opens them. Could be a web browser or something else. It does take a while for an OS to be so old that browsers don't support it anymore, but sufficiently old ones are vulnerable to known spectre exploits breaking out of the JS sandbox for example. Or random other browser features can be e…

With outdated browsers it does make senese. A bit more surprising is the image or video decoding exploit, considering that I'd assume those would usually be done in hardware rather than by some userspace or OS level code.

Hardware transcoding still involves software, plus the hardware itself can be vulnerable. It's not meant to act as security. But anyway, it's also very hit-or-miss. The drivers need to support it, and even then the software might not use it.

One random thing that ticks me off, Google Meet insists on using VP8/VP9 because they invented it, which has way less overall support for hardware transcoding. That's why it uses so much more CPU on many devices than Zoom etc which use the more common H.264.

Re: Windows 10 EOL

#119

Post by pathartl »

ralferoo wrote: post #8

> So Microsoft decided to produce tons of e-waste for no obvious reason. There's a lot of capable hardware out there, and it would be of software company's interest to support as much hardware as possible. The author then goes on to describe how he's just purchased 3 new Windows 11 licences... (indirectly via new computers)

Look at all of those 486s running Windows 10! Windows 11 is pure hell spawn. /s

Is the cutoff for 11 a bit arbitrary? Sure, but it's not unprecedented by any means. The machines that are supposedly turning to ewaste stopped receiving driver updates years ago. Why aren't we calling for the heads of hardware manufacturers?

Also let's ignore the obvious that the TPM check is still easily bypassable. It's not the most user friendly, your grandmother isn't going to be able to do it, but frankly your grandmother isn't going to update to 11 anyway. She's still stuck on 8.1.

Re: Windows 10 EOL

#120

Post by orev »

akimbostrawman wrote: post #69
frollogaston wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still not convinced that phone and laptop ewaste is a real problem. They're tiny. I've never actually thrown one away, they're just sitting around, taking less combined space than a nightstand drawer.

that might be the case for individuals but not corporations and organizations that also have the most hardware. i know from personal experience that windows 11 hardware requirements e-wasted tens of thousands of mostly perfectly fine computer and that is just a single medium sized organization. counting that up to even just one country is an enormous amount of waste. not to mention all the wasted money better spend e…

Can an organization that has “tens of thousands” of computers running Windows really be considered “medium sized”?
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