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Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

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Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#111

Post by fuzzy_biscuit »

mcgrath_sh wrote: post #73
gspencley wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't personally care about language choices in code, but I'll play devil's advocate and speculate as to why a business might be concerned. 1. Reputational harm in the event that code needs to be shared. Say, the code gets read in court, or an outside consultant is brought in who is given access to the code. The company likely wants to maintain the same standard of professionalism that they expect when their employ…

I can swear a lot while talking. I have never written a curse word in my code, especially professionally. Just seems odd and not useful? I wouldn't be offended if I came across one, but it seems weird to use in a professional setting? A lot of the times I have seen inappropriate words used were not in any context and were used as a "joke" when logging/debugging. So "dicks 01" or "fuck me 01" instead of a bland "check…

I try to be silly rather than explicitly vulgar for my own sanity. Having a comment about a hack that "stinks worse than expired chicken nuggets" or seems to have been "composed by a series of dartboard throws at random character sheets" is way more fun to me.

That said, I don't take issue with cursing in code that remains private to the development staff. As others have said more eloquently than I can, the issue is when it is exposed to customers who might take issue and churn. Not a good look, so for better or worse, there are professions where professionalism cozies up to sterile language.

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#112

Post by wat10000 »

javcasas wrote: post #55
Arainach wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are far more than two types; all of the most effective programmers I've ever worked with can do everything you mentioned and write professionally. If we have to boil it down to two types, however, I'd split it as "people who think they can do everything themselves and only the code matters" and "people who build effective teams capable of far more than themselves solo", and it's the second group that does the m…

It's great that you can do/lead and write professionally. But, in any case, writing professionally shouldn't take priority over doing/leading. Otherwise we wouldn't have the Linux kernel; and I bet the swearing guy behind it got more stuff done and made a bigger difference than the combination of the most effective programmers you have ever met.

False dichotomy. "Writing professionally" is also known as "communicating effectively" and it is part of doing/leading.

Linus made an enormous impact, certainly. He'd have had an even bigger impact if he was less of a caustic dick.

And before you say that there's a tradeoff involved and that genius technical people are just that way, look up Berkson's paradox.

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#113

Post by hack_katz »

SapporoChris wrote: post #100
rfrey wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I contend that you are slipping in the words "respectful" and "professional" and assuming the benefit of their positive connotations without an argument that simply omitting the occasional well-placed curse is indeed "professional". I think so-called "professional" speech - which I'd call bland and often ineffective speech - is professional in the same way that a suit and tie is professional. It's a uniform to ensure…

Vulgarity is a crutch used by those without the ability to communicate effectively. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-swearing-a-sig...

You should really read the literature you try to post. From the abstract of the study the article cites (~and the article itself implies agreement with~):

"Overall the findings suggest that, with the exception of female-sex-related slurs, taboo expressives and general pejoratives comprise the core of the category of taboo words while slurs tend to occupy the periphery, *and the ability to generate taboo language is not an index of overall language poverty.*" [* Emphasis mine]

Edit: realized the article does make the distinction between the ability to generate profanity and the willingness to do so, which while interesting is mere conjecture propped up by an anecdote within the article. I contend there are times for profanity and times for avoiding it, but suggesting that because someone chooses profanity they must be less intelligent is perhaps a comfortable idea, but it may also be an elitist one.

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#114

Post by pwdisswordfishz »

Arainach wrote: post #40
holowoodman wrote: post #2

Theory: the shift towards lesser swearwords is a sign of corporatization, making the linux source a soulless bland hellscape of confirmity.

Hopefully in a few decades the last of the people who think that using respectful discourse means no fun can be had will be gone and we can stop rehashing these threads. You're contributing to something that runs on billions of devices across the world and is maintained by people around the world of all types. If you can't describe your code, your reasons, and your notes politely, do better.

Forget "fun". Profanity is a signal of honesty. Which I much prefer to hiding behind patronizing, obfuscatory euphemisms like "verifying the security of your connection" and processes that diffuse responsibility out of existence.

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#115

Post by koverstreet »

Perizors wrote: post #101
koverstreet wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I think the nicest thing I can do, for my users, and for the engineers who come after me, is to write code that works, and write it in such a way that other people can figure out what it does without wanting to gouge their own eyes out. Clearly, we do not have the same goals.

It is not mutually exclusive tho

It's about priorities. I value clear and direct communication, and getting the job done, way more than mere politeness.

Politeness is not the end goal. It is a means to that goal, if and when it enables people to communicate more effectively and with less friction.

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#116

Post by falcor84 »

mcgrath_sh wrote: post #79
noworriesnate wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I had a coworker who put salty MessageBox.Show debug messages in the code, and one day while demoing the software a pop up appeared that said “BITCH!!!” Needless to say the customer was not amused. So the simple solution is just ban the bad words from the source code.

I wrote something similar in another comment. This is where I have seen curse words bite teams too. It is always the needless "joke" when debugging that surfaces. Just go boring. No one gets offended by "check 001."

Well, I do get offended by "check 001" - please just put some words there about what was checked. The worst offender of course is "unexpected error occurred" - my PTSD is so triggered by that one. Just freaking give me some error details!

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#117

Post by wat10000 »

gspencley wrote: post #64
javcasas wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never worked on a big corporation. But I find interesting about corporations forbidding swearwords in code. I mean, the people responsible for forbidding swearwords rarely read code. And if they read code with any frequency and are somewhat proficient at it, most likely they have their own list of swearwords. Also we should look to add more keywords to programming languages that trigger naïve filters. I'm all…

I don't personally care about language choices in code, but I'll play devil's advocate and speculate as to why a business might be concerned. 1. Reputational harm in the event that code needs to be shared. Say, the code gets read in court, or an outside consultant is brought in who is given access to the code. The company likely wants to maintain the same standard of professionalism that they expect when their employ…

3. Some of your coworkers may be among that group who finds it offensive or jarring. Maybe this is irrational, but we all are. I bet there's a sequence of ASCII bytes (say, art of certain infamous images from the early internet) that you wouldn't like to stumble across either.

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#118

Post by koverstreet »

perching_aix wrote: post #104
koverstreet wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While hordes of people peddle that everyone should be using it like gospel. You don't get that kind of widespread usage by mere faddism and preaching. A lot of people had to find it to be genuinely better than the alternatives. Maybe the unprofessional hackers knew what they were doing after all.

Not consistently mutually exclusive. I consider Linux awful, but that doesn't mean I'd advise us to migrate to Windows Server.

So... you badmouth Linux, in a thread about politeness, and you don't even have anything positive to say about anything? That's some delicious irony.

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#119

Post by lukas099 »

GJim wrote: post #27
sschueller wrote: post #4

Retard may not be in there as a swear word. It could be a comment regarding a "delay". [1] [1] :to delay or impede the development or progress of : to slow up especially by preventing or hindering advance or accomplishment

It's baffling anybody would think otherwise. Reddit auto-censorship (and such auto censorship elsewhere) has a lot to answer for.

I don't think it's auto-censorship as much as language changing. For me, 'retard' is 99% associated with my friends dissing each other as kids, and 1% associated with 'delay'.

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#120

Post by vntok »

thewisenerd wrote: post #93
holowoodman wrote: post #2

Theory: the shift towards lesser swearwords is a sign of corporatization, making the linux source a soulless bland hellscape of confirmity.

theory: the amount of crap is increasing. the number of fucks given are decreasing.

"Wtf" are increasing though, an effective indicator of code quality. https://imgur.com/only-valid-measurement-of-code-quality-J1s...
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