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FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

tomshardware.com

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Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#111

Aside from that, the upgrades to this critical infrastructure should be resistant to hacking and other vulnerabilities They should realise that, unlike e.g. USB drives or SSDs or even HDDs[1], floppy disks are dumb raw media and cannot contain any "hidden" behaviour, and the failure modes are well-known. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23735424

CD and DVD can fill this role though. It's a damn shame optical media progress cranked down like it did.

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#112
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A considerable number of countries use systems based on ex-Eurocat now TopSky, for their air traffic controllers, which is a distributed system. Install and updates are via a registry based system, and it supports Windows, Linux, macOS - because its mostly written in Ada and R, as of 2012. (Most are running on top of Linux, as far as I'm aware). No floppy disks, no underrunning DOS, etc.

Is this one of those things like phones or banking where the early adopters are stuck with old tech due to inertia while late adopters are using newer technology?

I think truth is more so that each is using contemporary technology from time the project started. So those that started later have newer. But that does not mean modern. As in current day.

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#114

If it works, then don't change it. I would trust a floppy-powered Windows 95 system over the horror show that passes for common operating systems in 2025. What will they think of next? Adding AI to the ATC system?

> If it works, then don't change it. As the article points out: the hardware is at risk of physically failing and it’s getting harder to replace like for like. That’s the reason for looking at an upgrade. Hell, even turning the machines off to replace them is a challenge since some systems need to run 24/7!

If the machine is that old, couldn't an emulator be used to migrate to modern hardware?

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#115
post #94

If it works, then don't change it. I would trust a floppy-powered Windows 95 system over the horror show that passes for common operating systems in 2025. What will they think of next? Adding AI to the ATC system?

Operating systems have gotten a whole lot more reliable since Windows 95. The way I remember it, Windows 98 would regularly corrupt itself and need to be manually reinstalled. I'd done it so many times that I could pretty much recite the license key from memory. Modern Linux is rock solid. Even Windows 10 is very stable. They might be 'bloated', but modern OS's are way, way more stable.

I've noticed that operating systems can get very flaky when the disk space gets tight. It seems that too much code does not check for disk full write failures.

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it works, then don't change it. As the article points out: the hardware is at risk of physically failing and it’s getting harder to replace like for like. That’s the reason for looking at an upgrade. Hell, even turning the machines off to replace them is a challenge since some systems need to run 24/7!

If the machine is that old, couldn't an emulator be used to migrate to modern hardware?

Not necessarily. For example, if there is custom hardware used for communications with other systems, such as radar for example, there might be specific timing and latency requirements that could be difficult to meet under emulation.

The most recent Dolphin Emulator post referenced a bug they had where memory cards were written to too quickly under the emulator (and even on actual hardware if you had memory cards that were sufficiently fast) which caused some games problems because they did not expect save files to be written so quickly. Imagine things like that, but where the worst case isn't having Wind Waker hang while saving, but planes crashing.

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#117
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A considerable number of countries use systems based on ex-Eurocat now TopSky, for their air traffic controllers, which is a distributed system. Install and updates are via a registry based system, and it supports Windows, Linux, macOS - because its mostly written in Ada and R, as of 2012. (Most are running on top of Linux, as far as I'm aware). No floppy disks, no underrunning DOS, etc.

Is this one of those things like phones or banking where the early adopters are stuck with old tech due to inertia while late adopters are using newer technology?

A lot of airports are privately or quasi privately (Canada has a non profit called NavCanada) run which allows for advance planning of CapEx instead of depending on Congress. The US system where the FAA oversees and runs ATC is, to put it nicely, unique.

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the machine is that old, couldn't an emulator be used to migrate to modern hardware?

Not necessarily. For example, if there is custom hardware used for communications with other systems, such as radar for example, there might be specific timing and latency requirements that could be difficult to meet under emulation. The most recent Dolphin Emulator post referenced a bug they had where memory cards were written to too quickly under the emulator (and even on actual hardware if you had memory cards tha…

Back when I was designing electronic circuits, the rule was to design for minimum speed, but faster speed should not cause a failure. The rationale was that newer parts were usually faster, and the older parts disappeared.

Of course, nothing can prevent poorly designed code and hardware.

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#119
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A considerable number of countries use systems based on ex-Eurocat now TopSky, for their air traffic controllers, which is a distributed system. Install and updates are via a registry based system, and it supports Windows, Linux, macOS - because its mostly written in Ada and R, as of 2012. (Most are running on top of Linux, as far as I'm aware). No floppy disks, no underrunning DOS, etc.

Is this one of those things like phones or banking where the early adopters are stuck with old tech due to inertia while late adopters are using newer technology?

I don't think so. I believe the UK had their own, but NATS chose to switch in about 2002, and finished transition in 2007.

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#120

If it works, then don't change it. I would trust a floppy-powered Windows 95 system over the horror show that passes for common operating systems in 2025. What will they think of next? Adding AI to the ATC system?

They are changing it for publicity reasons. It has nothing to do with whether or not it works.

This whole thing is being done as a reaction to this video:

https://youtu.be/YeABJbvcJ_k?t=1540

The article completed skipped over this. This video was released literally a week ago and is completely mocking the FAA. Floppy disks are a big joke in this video.

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