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Getting a paper accepted

maxwellforbes.com

111–120 of 135 posts

Re: Getting a paper accepted

#111
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only when they are disseminating in an academic venue. Most non-university research dissemination happens outside of academic venues. And even then usually only because it’s expected, not because it was actually useful. (And no, it’s not because academics are more ethical about acknowledging the shoulders they stand on. Academics rarely cite the chip designs, software libraries, lab instruments, instruction documents…

I don't find this true at all in my experience, you and I apparently have very different perspectives when it comes to the research we consume. The things which you say are not cited absolutely should be, and if they are not that's a problem. In the papers I read, I'm often encountering citations to specific versions of libraries, specific industry created operating systems, industry created programming languages of…

First of all: we’re pretty far off topic now and I don’t think this particular point is at all relevant to the main thesis of this thread.

That said, even if we accept the general premise of your post, which I don’t, you’re still drawing the wrong conclusion.

To wit: citing something does not imply that the cited thing is “foundational” to the work from which it is cited. One can cite work for any number of reasons. (Admittedly, citation behavior did change with the rise of bibliomaniacs, but of course that further bolsters my overall point, so I’m not sure the daylight on this point does you any favors.)

You identified some counter-examples that miss the point because they’re unrepresentative, unresponsive, and irrelevant.

Unrepresentative because we are discussing literature in aggregate and this behavior is common.

Unresponsive because, in aggregate, inessential academic writing is systematically over-cited in academic writing and essential inputs of other types are systematically under-cited in academic writing. This is true of all academic writing; it’s a bias of the medium and of the medium’s standard bearers.

And irrelevant because there is nothing a priori or essentially nefarious about the above, on its own!

Academics beat ideas and lines of inquiry deep into the ground. Crucially, they do so by pumping out ridiculous quantities of PDFs. For every little variation there is a paper. Outside of academia this isn’t done. Eg: you cite Package X, great! But do you cite the 17 different PRs most relevant to your work, many of which are at least a papers worth or work? No. That’s culturally off. But for the corresponding thinly sliced papers that’s what you have to do.

Conclusion: academic work dominates the citation list because of publication and citation culture, not because academic work dominates the set of enabling contributions.

I do trust that you genuinely do experience the world as you describe here, but I think you’re a fish in water and that Upton Sinclair quote about paychecks comes to mind.

Re: Getting a paper accepted

#112

The author has many other posts with solid advice, like "Don't Make Things Actually Work" https://maxwellforbes.com/posts/dont-make-things-actually-wo... It seems to go 180 degrees against what a smart starry-eyed junior grad student would believe. Surely, it's all about actually making things work, right? We are in the hard sciences, we don't just craft narratives about our ideas, we make cold hard useful things tha…

Or, you’re building a thing you can sell to others for a reasonable price, because it actually works.

This won’t get you a Stanford professorship. That’s something you can cry about from your mountain chalet or beachfront vacation home.

Re: Getting a paper accepted

#113
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't find this true at all in my experience, you and I apparently have very different perspectives when it comes to the research we consume. The things which you say are not cited absolutely should be, and if they are not that's a problem. In the papers I read, I'm often encountering citations to specific versions of libraries, specific industry created operating systems, industry created programming languages of…

First of all: we’re pretty far off topic now and I don’t think this particular point is at all relevant to the main thesis of this thread. That said, even if we accept the general premise of your post, which I don’t, you’re still drawing the wrong conclusion. To wit: citing something does not imply that the cited thing is “foundational” to the work from which it is cited. One can cite work for any number of reasons.…

> citing something does not imply that the cited thing is “foundational” to the work from which it is cited.

I neither wrote nor implied that. Sure there are many reasons to cite papers, but in saying "citing the research as foundational", meaning that their foundation is the reason for their citation. You were so eager to write all those words you didn't stop to actually read mine. Therefore, I think that's all I have to say to you, I'll leave the rest unread.

Re: Getting a paper accepted

#114
post #112

The author has many other posts with solid advice, like "Don't Make Things Actually Work" https://maxwellforbes.com/posts/dont-make-things-actually-wo... It seems to go 180 degrees against what a smart starry-eyed junior grad student would believe. Surely, it's all about actually making things work, right? We are in the hard sciences, we don't just craft narratives about our ideas, we make cold hard useful things tha…

Or, you’re building a thing you can sell to others for a reasonable price, because it actually works. This won’t get you a Stanford professorship. That’s something you can cry about from your mountain chalet or beachfront vacation home.

Sure, but many people who go for a PhD aren't the entrepreneur type. And in a corporation there are also "games", where building things that actually work may not be your best strategy. You need to work on visible, flashy, new things that looks good in a performance review and can get you a promotion. You have to deliver legible value.

Re: Getting a paper accepted

#115
post #98
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In academia the Federal Government is your only serious patron Are you are aware there is a world outside the USA?

Sorry, you’re totally correct! It’s important to point out that US professors are sometimes able to go without public patronage, but that this is very much an anomaly. The US private sector funds A LOT of R&D relative to other countries, and the US attracts an outsized amount of FDI targeted at R&D. As a result, in the USA there are occasionally rare instances where professors can mostly fund labs without government…

I think it's actually the opposite. American universities receive less research funding from external private sources than universities in the European countries I'm familiar with. The difference is probably due to the culture of charitable donations. Europe has a tradition of private foundations funding arts and sciences, while Americans make donations to universities.

In 2021, academic R&D spending in the US was ~$90 billion (https://ncses.nsf.gov/pubs/nsb202326/funding-sources-of-acad...). Out of that, 55% came from the federal government, 25% from the institutions themselves, 6% from nonprofits, 6% from businesses, 5% from state and local governments, and 3% from other sources. The share of businesses looks normal, while the share of nonprofits seems low.

Re: Getting a paper accepted

#117
post #67
post #49

I work in academia and have over 70 papers published. I Agree with most ideas in the article. Another dimension not covered is what I called “author engineering”. Many times it is very difficult to “get into” a new field if you don’t have an author known by the editors. I work in applied math (very transversal) and happen to me often to be rejected because “I don’t belong to the area”. PhD students usually don’t suff…

I thought that blind peer-reviews solved this?

Still many many journals don’t apply double blind reviews. There is no advantage of don’t doing it. There is no extra work in doing it.

So I assume that it is not done to keep outsiders out of your garden…

Honestly, I don’t find any other reason to don’t apply it.

Re: Getting a paper accepted

#118
post #117
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought that blind peer-reviews solved this?

Still many many journals don’t apply double blind reviews. There is no advantage of don’t doing it. There is no extra work in doing it. So I assume that it is not done to keep outsiders out of your garden… Honestly, I don’t find any other reason to don’t apply it.

There’s tons of extra work in double blind (for the author mostly, but also for peer reviewers and editors/chairs). Speaking from direct experience as author, reviewer, and chair at conferences. And generally the benefit is totally lost as you can easily circumvent it especially if you have already published in the field by just citing your previous work.

Re: Getting a paper accepted

#119
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument is about pursuing research for discovery or pursuing research for career advancement. Both scenarios require communication but for different reasons. You're not really addressing main critique.

The two are not as orthogonal as the cynical takes make it seem. This is also a bit like the idea that attractive people are less smart and vice versa, when the two are actually positively correlated. The people who won the career game at top US universities in technical fields don't simply get there by making their plots fancier or using the right words in the abstract in otherwise trivial papers. The papers do make…

You're not really addressing the point head on. The argument about how science is communicated is orthogonal. The argument is that science academia prioritizes career over pursuing academic science.

I won't speak for anyone else but here are three things I think are all true:

* We live in a renaissance of academic research that is giving us profound scientific discovery

* Prioritizing a scientific career over scientific discovery can lead to a net positive of good scientific results, and, so far, has

* Prioritizing a scientific career over scientific discovery produces low quality science

Saying that people who know how to maneuver the political academic landscape, to secure a position, also produce valuable contributions might be true (I believe it is) but the argument doesn't address the cost of prioritizing, or promoting, that behavior.

I'm reminded of "The Economics of Superstars" [0]. If someone is "better" by a measure of 2x, say, but gets (10+)x the amount of resources, this is not a good allocation of energy. Saying that the 2x person should get more resources is true. Saying that they're justified in getting orders of magnitude more resources, at the cost of everyone else who might use them to better effect, is not.

These conversations are subtle. I notice that one of the common crutches is to attack people as "just being bitter". This seems like a cheap attack and I wish you and others would try to be more thoughtful.

[0] https://home.uchicago.edu/~vlima/courses/econ201/Superstars....

Re: Getting a paper accepted

#120
post #58
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the way science is supposed to work...

It's a pet peeve of mine, but "publications" and "peer-review" are not really part of the scientific process? Just like "academia" they have kind of grown onto the term, almost claiming it for their own. I find that a sad evolution. The most fun in science can be had when done at home and shared with friends.

This!

Academia != science. It is a social construct and dominated by people with power within a given field. That being said, double blind review process improved the author engineering problem a lot.

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