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LLMs get lost in multi-turn conversation

arxiv.org

111–120 of 272 posts

Re: LLMs get lost in multi-turn conversation

#111
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been saying for ages that I want to be able to fork conversations so I can experiment with the direction an exchange takes without irrevocably poisoning a promising well. I can't do this with ChatGPT, is anyone aware of a provider that offers this as a feature?

Google AI studio, ChatGPT and Claude all support this. Google AI studio is the only one that let's you branch to a separate chat though. For ChatGPT and claude you just edit the message you want to branch from.

Support: Yes. But the UX is not optimized for this.

Imagine trying to find a specific output/input that was good in the conversation tree.

Re: LLMs get lost in multi-turn conversation

#112

I've been working on solving this with quite a bit of success, I'll be sharing more on this soon. It involves having 2 systems 1st system is the LLM itself and another system which acts like a 'curator' of thoughts you could say. It dynamically swaps in / out portions of the context. This system is also not based on explicit definitions it relies on LLMs 'filling the gaps'. The system helps the llm break down problem…

This is a great idea. What you are doing is a RAG over the chat.

In the future such a distinction in memory hierarchies will be more clear

- Primary memory in the training data

- Secondary memory in context

- Tertiary memory in RAG

Re: LLMs get lost in multi-turn conversation

#113
post #83

I've been working on solving this with quite a bit of success, I'll be sharing more on this soon. It involves having 2 systems 1st system is the LLM itself and another system which acts like a 'curator' of thoughts you could say. It dynamically swaps in / out portions of the context. This system is also not based on explicit definitions it relies on LLMs 'filling the gaps'. The system helps the llm break down problem…

So, Map-Reduce-of-Thought?

You could say that! hahaha! I'm happy to see someone understand what it is.

Re: LLMs get lost in multi-turn conversation

#114
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anthropic found that it Claude will pretend that it used the "standard" way to do addition- add the digits, carry the 1, etc- but the pattern of activations showed it using a completely different algorithm. So these things can role play as introspecting- they come up with plausible post-hoc explanations for their output- but they are still just pretending, so they will get it wrong. So you can teach a model to someti…

> Anthropic found that it Claude will pretend that it used the "standard" way to do addition- add the digits, carry the 1, etc- but the pattern of activations showed it using a completely different algorithm. That doesn't mean much; humans sometimes do the same thing. I recall a fun story about a mathematician with synesthesia multiplying numbers by mixing the colours together. With a bit of training such a person co…

Even then the human doesn't know how they execute the algorithm, or mix the colours together - our conscious self-reflective mind has limits as to how far into our neural network weights it can reach. Can get further with lots of meditation, but it is still definitionally limited (in information theory terms).

Re: LLMs get lost in multi-turn conversation

#115
post #20
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> inability to self-reflect IMO the One Weird Trick for LLMs is recognizing that there's no real entity, and that users are being tricked into a suspended-disbelief story. In most cases cases you're contributing text-lines for a User-character in a movie-script document, and the LLM algorithm is periodically triggered to autocomplete incomplete lines for a Chatbot character. You can have an interview with a vampire D…

This is a tired semantic argument that does not bring any insight into the discussion. A token-predictor could still be trained to predict the tokens “I’m not sure what you mean because of points x, y, and z; could you elaborate?”

It's not a tired argument, and not just a semantic one it's a foundational characteristic of LLM.

> A token-predictor could still be trained to predict the tokens “I’m not sure what you mean because of points x, y, and z; could you elaborate?”

This is entirely true, and the key insight is even right in your sentence but you don't seem to grasp it. “could still be trained”: you can train an LLM into doing whatever you want it to, but you have to train it specifically for that!

In the beginning of LLM we witnessed this impressive phenomenon where the LLM exhibited emergent capabilities (I'm particularly thinking about LLMs being few shots learners about stuff that wasn't in their training corpus). And these emergent capabilities legitimately raised the question about “how intelligent these things are, really”.

But for the past three years, the key lesson is that this kind of emergent effect is too small to be useful, and the focus has been put towards creating purposely built datasets (with tons of “artificial data”) to train the model to explicitly do things we want it to do. And it works pretty well, as models' capabilities kept improving at a fast pace (and in particular, I don't see would we couldn't overcome the problem highlighted by this paper, with more synthetic data specifically designed for multi-turn conversation). But their progress is now strictly limited by their makers' own intelligence. You cannot just scrap the web throw compute at the problem and expect emergent intelligence to occur anymore. It's more “simulated intelligence” than “artificial intelligence”, really.

Re: LLMs get lost in multi-turn conversation

#117
post #86

It's nice to see a paper that confirms what anyone who has practiced using LLM tools already knows very well, heuristically. Keeping your context clean matters, "conversations" are only a construct of product interfaces, they hurt the quality of responses from the LLM itself, and once your context is "poisoned" it will not recover, you need to start fresh with a new chat.

I've been saying for ages that I want to be able to fork conversations so I can experiment with the direction an exchange takes without irrevocably poisoning a promising well. I can't do this with ChatGPT, is anyone aware of a provider that offers this as a feature?

If you're happy running local models, llama.cpp's built-in web-server's interface can do this.

Re: LLMs get lost in multi-turn conversation

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This matches my experience exactly. "poisoned" is a great way to put it. I find once something has gone wrong all subsequent responses are bad. This is why I am iffy on ChatGPT's memory features. I don't notice it causing any huge problems but I don't love how it pollutes my context in ways I don't fully understand.

It's interesting how much the nature of LLMs fundamentally being self recursive next token predictors aligns with the Chinese Room experiment. [1] In such experiment it also makes perfect sense that a single wrong response would cascade into a series of subsequent ever more drifting errors. I think it all emphasizes the relevance of the otherwise unqualifiable concept of 'understanding.' In many ways this issue could…

Great comment on the Chinese room. That idea seems to be dismissed nowadays but the concept of “cascading failure to understand context” is absolutely relevant to LLMs. I often find myself needing to explain basic details over and over again to an LLM; when with a person it would be a five second, “no, I mean like this way, not that way” explanation.

Re: LLMs get lost in multi-turn conversation

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This matches my experience exactly. "poisoned" is a great way to put it. I find once something has gone wrong all subsequent responses are bad. This is why I am iffy on ChatGPT's memory features. I don't notice it causing any huge problems but I don't love how it pollutes my context in ways I don't fully understand.

good point on the memory feature. Wow that sounds terrible

The memory is easy to turn off. It sounded like a very bad idea to cross-contaminate chats so I disabled it as soon as ChatGPT introduced it.

Re: LLMs get lost in multi-turn conversation

#120
Why do LLMs struggle so much with recovering from early wrong turns in multi-turn conversations — even when all prior context is available and tokenized?

Is it due to the model's training distribution (mostly single-shot completions), the way context windows are encoded, or an architectural bottleneck?

Feels like there's no dynamic internal state that evolves over the conversation — only a repeated re-parsing of static history. Has anyone seen work on integrating memory/state mechanisms that allow belief revision within a session, not just regurgitation of past tokens?

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