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Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

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Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#111

Post by thisislife2 »

teleforce wrote: post #92

>In broad terms, the messages seek to remind the elite that Ramses had been chosen by the gods and claimed his ancestry from Amun-Re and Maat. Ramses had come to the throne relatively late at the age of 25 years old following the death of his father Seti. Having not been born a king, Ramses used the obelisk as a propaganda tool early in his reign to reinforce his supremacy and divine nature. Fun facts, prophet Moses…

All religion seem to be a "refactoring" of the core moral / ethical / ritualistic "codebase" of previous older religions. This is ofcourse most apparent when you study all the 3 Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam). Some historians have even posited that the early ideas of Judaism ("chosen people", monotheism) actually originated from other African countries before finally arriving in Egypt and causing the religious discord in their society that lead to the emergence of Moses as a religious leader, and the birth Judaism. See this interesting Q&A - Were the Ten Commandments taken from the Egyptian Book of the Dead? - https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/31534/were-the-... ... (While Egyptian history is popular because of the Roman connection and the fascination for Pyramids, Pharoahs and Moses, the history of other African empires are not quite well known because in many ways imperialism and colonialism still persists there).

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#113

Post by throwawaymb »

anthk wrote: post #99
orwin wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea of cryptohieroglyphs is accepted as true it seems (at least in France), even though most Egyptologist think they are highly interpretative: think about literature and how some literature expert would interpret Poe's books (sorry only classic US author i know beside Kerouac), except worse. Still, it's clear ancient egyptians loved their puzzles, the clear interpretation of what they mean is what elude us.

Mark Twain, it's a must read. And not just Huckleberry Finn.

[flagged]

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#114

Post by everdrive »

mystified5016 wrote: post #108
anthk wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Go back to 4chan with this drivel

That may have been a very poorly (and rudely) formatted comment, however the actual historicity of Exodus is doubted by scholars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Exodus

"Most mainstream scholars do not accept the biblical Exodus account as historical for a number of reasons. It is generally agreed that the Exodus stories were written centuries after the apparent setting of the stories."

"However, a majority of scholars believe that the story has an historical core,[12][13] though disagreeing widely about what that historical kernel might have been."

I am not a scholar, however given just how many tribes Egyptians subjugated, and just how syncretic much of the early Israelite religion was, it's certainly not unreasonable to think that there was at least some group of people which had a "fleeing from Egypt" story which did later get subsumed into the Israelite religion.

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#115

Post by dumbledoren »

mystified5016 wrote: post #108
anthk wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Go back to 4chan with this drivel

His language may be childish, but he is historically on the spot:

There is absolutely no record of any slave 'race' of any Canaanites in Ancient Egypt, no kind of exodus, nor any kind of major event in that time period that could lead to such an exodus. The closest that could simulate an 'exodus' is the !likelihood! of some Canaanite people who may have come with the Hyksos in the Hyksos invasion going back to Canaan. Or, some local people who collaborated with the Hyksos, thinking that it could be better to go with them to avoid the ire of their own countrymen, who conquered Lower Egypt after 100 years.

People tried too hard to find anything in Ancient Egyptian history, records and events that could validate Moses, 'slave Semitics' and the exodus story, but until now, there is absolutely nothing. The most likely thing, if you try hard enough, could be the leaders of the people mentioned above, who may have potentially existed, inventing a 'promised land' story to persuade their people to go to Canaan. And even that is too big a stretch. The entire thing can easily be a mythology local Canaanites invented to justify their rights to the land without anything like it having happened.

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#116

Post by rixed »

amitport wrote: post #109
jimjimjim wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that logic who does it belong to? How long does someone need to be in an area to be the "owner" of it. The people on Egypt currently weren't there when it was moved. Why should they get it? The people that were there when it was moved definitely weren't there 3000 years ago when it was made. Did they own it? In fact who owns anything in the world?

easy, never give away or sell ancient artifacts. Would you be fine with people conquering rome, and selling it all stone by stone? Would you be OK with some Italian dictator doing it?

Rings true to me. The notion of ownership has been extended to almost everything and it makes no sense that anyone can claim ownership of an ancient obelisk. Or rather, we should distinguish between "I'm the caretaker of", "I'm the one who benefits from", and "I can do whatever I want with".

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#117

Post by orwin »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #87
orwin wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No way this was ever said. No way. It's so wild it's funny. I ought to follow US news more (and sorry for people who live there).

It's genuinely not bad as long as you don't have terminally online syndrome. The vast majority of the country, even people who don't like Trump, gets along with their everyday lives without stressing out about him. It's just that most people commenting on forums online are terminally online and get very worked up about things.

You have to admit that's funny. Not sure how I would feel with him as my president, but he is really funny, both intentionally and unintentionally, so the entertainment value is high.

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#118

Post by infecto »

krapp wrote: post #25
infecto wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I generally understand the sentiment, I would also argue that most of the countries that have been pillaged of artifacts are also incredibly unstable. I would rather the pillaging exist than to lose history. We could go on as to why those countries are unstable but keeping it bounded to simply the pillaging of artifacts I stand behind it.

Europeans routinely destroyed the artifacts of any culture they considered heretical. They tore down Greek and Roman temples to build churches on the ruins. They stripped the Coliseum for parts. They made soup out of mummies and traded grave goods as baubles. The premise that they somehow deserve to be considered the librarians and guardians of the very cultures they colonized and exploited is an absurd, and implicit…

Never claimed the intent was noble, but I am saying I generally disagree with returning them to their origin spot.

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#119

Post by anthk »

dumbledoren wrote: post #115
mystified5016 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go back to 4chan with this drivel

His language may be childish, but he is historically on the spot: There is absolutely no record of any slave 'race' of any Canaanites in Ancient Egypt, no kind of exodus, nor any kind of major event in that time period that could lead to such an exodus. The closest that could simulate an 'exodus' is the !likelihood! of some Canaanite people who may have come with the Hyksos in the Hyksos invasion going back to Canaan…

Yes, I agree that my answer was childish; but I was fed up, sorry. I'm tired of people taking myths as a source of events. Just imagine if we do the same with the Graeco-Roman myths, or the Egyptian ones. Everyone would talk about that as pure nonsense. And yet, with the Bible it's somehow dealt as if it were the Elements from Euclid but for the Ancient times, were in truth it belongs to the same cathegory as the Illiad or Beowulf.

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#120

Post by gopher_space »

KennyBlanken wrote: post #83
gopher_space wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole idea of giving things back to Egypt is currently tainted by the complete lack of professional respect everyone else on the planet has for the guy running things there. I could picture institutions saying they'll send artifacts back and then just dragging their feet until he retires.

"Gee, sorry my ancestors stole that thing from that house a hundred plus years ago. Too bad there's a jerk living in the house right at this moment, that's why it hasn't been returned yet." It's a little strange to have so little morals you accept a stolen gift from conquerors and don't make the slightest effort to return it over a considerable period of time, even after doing such a thing becomes the accepted moral…

That might make sense if you were unaware of all the other repatriation projects underway or completed. It’s been a hot subject since the 70’s and there’s been a lot of thinking and work put in.
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