That is now obvious, any LLM is able to code, and is usually very bad at math.
This alone proves that a good part of programming is linked to language not math.
Even if CS is sort of applied mathematics.
The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)
111–120 of 465 posts
Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)
#112> language ability and problem solving skills First red flag is here. The title rewrote this to be language only. That problem solving skills are relevant is pretty obvious, but language less so. I’ve been programming for most of my life and I don’t consider myself a very good speaker. My language skills are passable. And learning new languages? Forget it. So I’m skeptical. Let’s look at the study. First of all, “mat…
> That problem solving skills are relevant is pretty obvious, but language less so.
To me, problem solving ability is precisely the same as the ability to articulate the problem and a solution. I don't see a major difference.
If you can solve a problem but you can't articulate what the problem is or why the solution will address it, I wouldn't call you a good problem solver. If you can articulate the problem well but not come up with a solution, you're already doing better than a lot of programmers in the world, and I'd probably prefer working with you over someone who presents the solution without "showing their work".
In fact, what is problem solving without such articulation? It's hard to even grasp what the skill means in a raw sense. Arguably creativity in this context is just the ability to reframe a problem in a more approachable manner. Many times, if not most times, such framing implies some obvious solution or sets of solutions with clear tradeoffs.
Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)
#113It think this is silly on multiple accounts. I'll claim that there's not real thing such as a "language brain" or "math brain." I'll also claim that most people don't know what math is, and that their evidence supports a "math brain".
Math isn't about calculations/computations, it is about patterns. You get to algebra and think "what are these letters doing in my math" but once you get further you think "what are these numbers doing in my math?"
A great tragedy we have in math education is that we focus so much on calculation. There's tons of useful subjects that are only taught once people get to an undergraduate math degree or grad school despite being understandable by children. The basics of things like group theory, combinatorics, graphs, set theory, category theory, etc. All of these also have herculean levels of depth, but there's plenty of things that formalize our way of thinking yet are easily understandable by children. If you want to see an example, I recommend Visual Group Theory[0]. Math is all about abstraction and for some reason we reserve that till "late in the game". But I can certainly say that getting this stuff accelerates learning and has a profound effect on the way I think. Though an important component of that is ensuring that you really take to heart the abstraction, not getting in your own way by thinking these tools only apply in very specific applications. A lot of people struggle with word problems, but even though they might involve silly situations like having a cousin named Throckmorton or him wanting to buy 500 watermelons, they really are part of that connection from math to reality.
This is why "advanced" math accelerating my learning, because that "level" of math is about teaching you abstractions. Ways to think. These are tremendously helpful even if you do not end up writing down equations. Because, math isn't really about writing down equations. But we do it because it sure helps, especially when shit gets complicated.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwTQdOop-nU&list=PLwV-9DG53N...
Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)
#114There is no such thing as a "language brain" or a "math brain" unless you show experimentally that those bunch of neurons can be grouped into two non-overlapping regions dedicated to "language" and "mathematics". Mathematics itself is a human-made formal language that can be bootstrapped from definitions and axioms of logics and set theory, which have to be given in human language first. Experienced mathematicians re…
The other thing I don't like about this framing is the implicit false dichotomy. The best programmers I've met often have strong language and math skills. Poetry is the art of giving different names to the same thing. Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. (Henri Poincaré) It's basically being good at "naming things", in particular abstractions.
"naming things" is really about "recognizing things" and/or "understanding things". It much deeper than just language.
Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)
#115Earlier quoted context omitted.
Early, strong reader here. Off-the-charts spatial reasoning, as measured by tests. Terrible at math, I hate it and feel dyslexic trying to read most mathematical writing. I excelled at it in elementary school, then quickly came to feel frustratingly stupid at it as it became less about algorithms (more on that in a bit...) and all about equations and abstract stuff with unknown applications. However, programming was…
Same but I am literally math dyslexic (formal diagnosis of dyscalculia). It prevented me from having a CS degree, I was unable to complete the math courses, but as far as actual programming and "software engineering" goes (design, etc) it's never hindered me. I can work out the logic and I let the computer do the math. Edit: I'm downvoted below zero for this comment. I don't know what people are so offended by?
Yeah, to be clear, I'm not diagnosed with anything like that, and am only likening the experience to what I imagine it's like for dyslexics of humans language as a ready metaphor—meanwhile, the concepts aren't hard for me, like, a lot of people with no diagnosis of anything fall off the math-wagon right around the time operations on fractions are introduced, but the concepts have always posed no trouble to me and I breezed through early potential trip-ups like that. The style of presentation, specifically, is what gives me such a hard time and is what makes trying to approach even fairly easy "real" mathematics so hard for me.
> It prevented me from having a CS degree, I was unable to complete the math courses, but as far as actual programming and "software engineering" goes (design, etc) it's never hindered me. I can work out the logic and I let the computer do the math.
This is what's wild to me: I have a long, successful career in a "STEM" field that's allegedly math-heavy, while being practically incapable of working with math. Like, it's never even been slightly a problem. I can't relate at all to characterizations of programming as heavy on math. It's never been my experience of it, and at this rate, probably never will be. If it were, I'd for-sure be in a different job.
Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)
#116Computer science definitely requires math brain
Yes, nobody doubt about that. The article is about programming, which, even if it requires some math skills, require more an ability to deal with a language system.
Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)
#117As a mathematician by trade, the math brain is a language brain. Mathematics is about abstract communication rather than mechanics.
Oh wait neuroscientists, explains it all. A statisticians favourite target for being unable to interpret data correctly.
Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)
#118Earlier quoted context omitted.
I can't speak for other forms of FP, but symbol operators make communicating about haskell very annoying. Outside of that FP seems to be doing fine, IMO.
Try APL, you'll be begging for FP.
To be clear, the symbols themselves don't bother me so much as trying to refer to them in spoken english. I have no particular beef with the use of symbols in code, which can be quite readable.
Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)
#119Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, but “language is fundamentally recursive” doesn’t mean the same thing as “recursion is fundamentally linguistic”. Language is just one example of a recursive structure.
I am also unsure whether recursion is fundamentally linguistic, but I thought that “language remains the easiest demonstration of recursion in our daily lives” to be useful. If I ever write another essay about recursion, I'll now consider starting with a linguistic example before diving into recursive functions or data structures.
Language has nothing that corresponds to a recursive function, so that is a bad example. You can write a sentence that could correspond to a call to a recursive function, but its not the same thing as a recursive function.
If recursion was just writing the function 10 times like you did in language then people wouldn't struggle with it.
Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)
#120Earlier quoted context omitted.
And/or application domain. Lower level programming might lean more on the math side? Wasn't the modulus operator a common complaint about fizz-buzz?
Low level requires more discipline, similar to math, that's about it.
Math doesn't require discipline though, many learn and do math without much discipline.