Live data from Hacker News

What Is Entropy?

jasonfantl.com

111–120 of 123 posts

Re: What Is Entropy?

#111
This is the best description of entropy and information I've read: https://arxiv.org/abs/1601.06176

Most of all, it highlights the subjective / relative foundations of these concepts.

Entropy and Information only exist relative to a decision about the set of state an observer cares to distinguish.

It also caused me to change my informal definition of entropy from a negative ("disorder)" to a more positive one ("the number of things I might care to know")

The Second Law now tells me that the number of interesting things I don't know about is always increasing!

This thread inspired me to post it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43695358

Re: What Is Entropy?

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to my perhaps naive interpretation of that, the "degree of surprise" would depend on at least three things: 1. the laws of nature (i.e. how accurately do the laws of physics permit measuring the system and how determined are future states based on current states) 2. one's present understanding of the laws of nature 3. one's ability to measure the state of a system accurately and compute the predictions in p…

OP is talking about information entropy. Nature isn't relevant there.

Surely laws of nature are still relevant since they (presumably) establish limits on how closely a system can be measured and which physical interactions can be simulated by computers (and how accurately).

Re: What Is Entropy?

#114
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant to say "intensive" in the physics sense but just brain farted while typing.

Ah, then I don’t see what’s wrong with “the number of ways in which the system can be non-uniform in temperature is much lower than the number of ways it can be uniform in temperature”. In equilibrium one doesn’t have a gradient of temperature because “…” indeed.

If you take "temperature" to mean "average kinetic energy of molecules" then it's fine. But that's sort of the same class of simplification as saying "entropy is the amount of disorder".

Re: What Is Entropy?

#115

I like the axiomatic definition of entropy. Here's the introduction from Pattern Recognition and Machine Learning by C. Bishop (2006): > The amount of information can be viewed as the ‘degree of surprise’ on learning the value of x. If we are told that a highly improbable event has just occurred, we will have received more information than if we were told that some very likely event has just occurred, and if we knew…

How can that be axiomatic?

I offer a coherent, concise dissenting view.

Information is the removal of uncertainty. If it does not remove uncertainty it is not information. Uncertainty is state unresolved (potential resolves to state through constructive and destructive interference.)

Entropy is the existential phenomenon of potential distributing over the infinite manifold of negative potential. “Uncertainty.”

Emergence is a potential outcome greater than the capacity found in the sum of any parts.

Modern humanity’s erroneous extrapolations:

- asserting P>=0 without account that in existential reality 0 is the infinite expanse of cosmic void, thus the true mathematical description would be P>=-1

- confuse heat with entropy. Heat is the ultimate universal expression as heat is a product of all work and all existence is winding down (after all). Entropy directs thermodynamics, thermodynamics is not the extent of entropy.

- entropy is NOT the number of possible states in a system. Entropy is the distribution of potential; number of states are boundary conditions which uncalculated potential may reconfigure (the “cosmic ray” or murfy’s rule of component failure.) Existential reality is interference and decay.

- entropy is not “loss”. Loss is the entropy less work achieved.

- this business about “in a closed system “ is an example of how brilliant minds lie to themselves. No such thing exists anywhere accessible by Man. Even theoretically, the principles of decay and the “exogenous” influence of one impercieved influence over a “contained system.” Or “modeled system”, for one self deception is for the scientist or engineer to presume these speak for or on behalf of reality.

Emergence is the potential (the vector space of some capacity) “created” through some system of dynamics (work). “Some” includes the expressive space of all existential or theoretical reality. All emergent potential is “paid for” by burning available potential of some other kind. In nature the natural forces induce work in their extremes. In natural systems these design for the “mitigation of uncertainty” [soft form entropy], aka “intelligence.”

Entropy is the existential phenomenon of potential distributing over negative potential.

Information is the removal of uncertainty. If it does not remove uncertainty, it is not information. (And intelligence is the mitigation of uncertainty.)

Emergence is a potential outcome greater than the capacity found in the sum of any parts.

Re: What Is Entropy?

#116
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, then I don’t see what’s wrong with “the number of ways in which the system can be non-uniform in temperature is much lower than the number of ways it can be uniform in temperature”. In equilibrium one doesn’t have a gradient of temperature because “…” indeed.

If you take "temperature" to mean "average kinetic energy of molecules" then it's fine. But that's sort of the same class of simplification as saying "entropy is the amount of disorder".

I don't follow you. Whatever you take temperature to mean, for an isolated system in equilibrium that intensive thermodynamic property will have the same value everywhere and the entropy of the system will thus be maximized given the constraints.

If you put two subsystems at different temperatures in thermal contact the combined system will be in equilibrium only when the cold one warms up and the hot one cools down. The increase in the entropy of the first is larger than the decrease in the entropy of the second (because ΔQ/T1 > ΔQ/T2 when T1No kinetic energies of molecules are involved in that phenomenological description of heat flowing from hot to cold.

Re: What Is Entropy?

#117
post #62
post #48

I'm not sure I understand the distinction between "high-entropy macrostate" and "order". Aren't macrostates just as subjective as order? Let's say my friend's password is 6dVcOgm8. If we have a system whose microstate consists of an arbitrary string of alphanumeric characters, and the system arranges itself in the configuration 6dVcOgm8, then I would describe the macrostate as "random" and "disordered". However, if m…

I think you need to rigorously define your macrostates. If your two states are "my friend's password" and "not my friend's password" then the macrostates are perfectly objective. You don't know what macrostate the system is in, but that doesn't change the fact that the system is objectively in one of those two macrostates. If you define your macrostates using subjective terms (e.g. "a string that's meaningful to me"…

I guess part of my question is, are there any macrostates that are useful to us that can't be described using more abstract human-subjective terms? If a macrostate can be described using human terms, I'd say the state is somewhat ordered. And if a state can't be described using human terms, then wouldn't it be indistinguishable from "particle soup" and thus not a useful macrostate to talk about?

Re: What Is Entropy?

#118

I like the axiomatic definition of entropy. Here's the introduction from Pattern Recognition and Machine Learning by C. Bishop (2006): > The amount of information can be viewed as the ‘degree of surprise’ on learning the value of x. If we are told that a highly improbable event has just occurred, we will have received more information than if we were told that some very likely event has just occurred, and if we knew…

This is a great characterization of self-information. I would add that the `log` term doesn't just conveniently appear to satisfy the additivity axiom, but instead is the exact historical reason why it was invented in the first place. As in, the log function was specifically defined to find a family of functions that satisfied f(xy) = f(x) + f(y). So, self-information is uniquely defined by (1) assuming that informat…

Thanks for this! I read this paper/derivation/justification once in grad school but I can’t now find the reference - do you have one?

Re: What Is Entropy?

#119
post #91

Boltzmann and Gibbs turn in their graves, every time some information theorist mutilates their beloved entropy. Shanon & Von Neumann were hacking a new theory of communication, not doing real physics and never meant to equate thermodynamic concepts to encoding techniques - but alas now dissertations are written on it. Entropy can't be a measure of uncertainty, because all the uncertainty is in the probability distrib…

> Shanon & Von Neumann were hacking a new theory of communication, not doing real physics Maybe I’m misunderstanding the reference to von Neumann but his work on entropy was about physics, not about communication.

More precisely, Von Neumann was extending Shannon's information theoretic entropy to quantum channels, which he restated as S(p)=Tr(p ln(p)) - Again showing that information theoretic entropy reveals nothing more about a system than its probability distribution density matrix p.

Re: What Is Entropy?

#120
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Shanon & Von Neumann were hacking a new theory of communication, not doing real physics Maybe I’m misunderstanding the reference to von Neumann but his work on entropy was about physics, not about communication.

More precisely, Von Neumann was extending Shannon's information theoretic entropy to quantum channels, which he restated as S(p)=Tr(p ln(p)) - Again showing that information theoretic entropy reveals nothing more about a system than its probability distribution density matrix p.

It’s quite remarkable that in his 1927 paper “The thermodynamics of quantum-mechanical ensembles” von Neumann was extending the mathematical theory of communication that Shannon - who was 11 at the time - would only publish decades later.
Post reply on HN