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GPT-4.1 in the API

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Re: GPT-4.1 in the API

#111
post #75

Are there any benchmarks or someone who did tests of performance of using this long max token models in scenarios where you actually use more of this token limit? I found from my experience with Gemini models that after ~200k that the quality drops and that it basically doesn't keep track of things. But I don't have any numbers or systematic study of this behavior. I think all providers who announce increased max tok…

There are some benchmarks such as Fiction.LiveBench[0] that give an indication and the new Graphwalks approach looks super interesting.

But I'd love to see one specifically for "meaningful coding." Coding has specific properties that are important such as variable tracking (following coreference chains) described in RULER[1]. This paper also cautions against Single-Needle-In-The-Haystack tests which I think the OpenAI one might be. You really need at least Multi-NIAH for it to tell you anything meaningful, which is what they've done for the Gemini models.

I think something a bit more interpretable like `pass@1 rate for coding turns at 128k` would so much more useful than "we have 1m context" (with the acknowledgement that good-enough performance is often domain dependant)

[0] https://fiction.live/stories/Fiction-liveBench-Mar-25-2025/o...

[1] https://arxiv.org/pdf/2404.06654

Re: GPT-4.1 in the API

#112
post #93

I like how Nano matches Gemini 2.0 Flash's price. That will help drive down prices which will be good for my app. However I don't like how Nano behaves worse than 4o Mini in some benchmarks. Maybe it will be good enough, we'll see.

Theory here is that 4.1-nano is competing with that tier, 4.1 with flash-thinking (although likely to do significantly worse), and o4-mini or o3-large will compete with 2.5 thinking

Re: GPT-4.1 in the API

#113
post #75

Are there any benchmarks or someone who did tests of performance of using this long max token models in scenarios where you actually use more of this token limit? I found from my experience with Gemini models that after ~200k that the quality drops and that it basically doesn't keep track of things. But I don't have any numbers or systematic study of this behavior. I think all providers who announce increased max tok…

https://fiction.live/stories/Fiction-liveBench-Mar-25-2025/o...

IMO this is the best long context benchmark. Hopefully they will run it for the new models soon. Needle-in-a-haystack is useless at this point. Llama-4 had perfect needle in a haystack results but horrible real-world-performance.

Re: GPT-4.1 in the API

#114

GPT-4.1 Pricing (per 1M tokens): gpt-4.1 - Input: $2.00 - Cached Input: $0.50 - Output: $8.00 gpt-4.1-mini - Input: $0.40 - Cached Input: $0.10 - Output: $1.60 gpt-4.1-nano - Input: $0.10 - Cached Input: $0.025 - Output: $0.40

The cached input price is notable here: previously with GPT-4o it was 1/2 the cost of raw input, now it's 1/4th. It's still not as notable as Claude's 1/10th the cost of raw input, but it shows OpenAI's making improvements in this area.

Unless that has changed, anthropics (and gemini) caches are opt-in though if I recall, openai automatically chaches for you.

Re: GPT-4.1 in the API

#115
post #108

> We will also begin deprecating GPT‑4.5 Preview in the API, as GPT‑4.1 offers improved or similar performance on many key capabilities at much lower cost and latency. why would they deprecate when it's the better model? too expensive?

> why would they deprecate when it's the better model? too expensive?

Too expensive, but not for them - for their customers. The only reason they’d deprecated it is if it wasn’t seeing usage worth keeping it up and that probably stems from it being insanely more expensive and slower than everything else.

Re: GPT-4.1 in the API

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a HUGE difference that you are not mentioning: there are "gpt-4o" and "chatgpt-4o-latest" on the API. The former is the stable version (there are a few snapshot but the newest snapshot has been there for a while), and the latter is the fine-tuned version that they often update on ChatGPT. All those benchmarks were done for the API stable version of GPT-4o, since that's what businesses rely on, not on "chatgpt…

Good point, but how does that relate to, or explain, the decision not to release 4.1 in ChatGPT? If they have a nice post-training pipeline to make 4o "nicer" to talk to, why not use it to fine-tune the base 4.1 into e.g. chatgpt-4.1-latest?

Because chatgpt-4o-latest already has all of those improvements, the largest point of this release (IMO) is to offer developers a stable snapshot of something that compares to modern 4o latest. Altman said that they'd offer a stable snapshot of chatgpt 4o latest on the API, he perhaps did really mean GPT 4.1.

Re: GPT-4.1 in the API

#117
post #75

Are there any benchmarks or someone who did tests of performance of using this long max token models in scenarios where you actually use more of this token limit? I found from my experience with Gemini models that after ~200k that the quality drops and that it basically doesn't keep track of things. But I don't have any numbers or systematic study of this behavior. I think all providers who announce increased max tok…

The problem is that while you can train a model with the hyperparameter of "context size" set to 1M, there's very little 1M data to train on. Most of your model's ability to follow long context comes from the fact that it's trained on lots of (stolen) books; in fact I believe OpenAI just outright said in court that they can't do long context without training on books.

Novels are usually measured in terms of words; and there's a rule of thumb that four tokens make up about three words. So that 200k token wall you're hitting is right when most authors stop writing. 150k is already considered long for a novel, and to train 1M properly, you'd need not only a 750k book, but many of them. Humans just don't write or read that much text at once.

To get around this, whoever is training these models would need to change their training strategy to either:

- Group books in a series together as a single, very long text to be trained on

- Train on multiple unrelated books at once in the same context window

- Amplify the gradients by the length of the text being trained on so that the fewer long texts that do exist have greater influence on the model weights as a whole.

I suspect they're doing #2, just to get some gradients onto the longer end of the context window, but that also is going to diminish long-context reasoning because there's no reason for the model to develop a connection between, say, token 32 and token 985,234.

Re: GPT-4.1 in the API

#119
post #75

Are there any benchmarks or someone who did tests of performance of using this long max token models in scenarios where you actually use more of this token limit? I found from my experience with Gemini models that after ~200k that the quality drops and that it basically doesn't keep track of things. But I don't have any numbers or systematic study of this behavior. I think all providers who announce increased max tok…

I ran NoLiMa on Quasar Alpha (GPT-4.1's stealth mode): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43640166#43640790

Updated results from the authors: https://github.com/adobe-research/NoLiMa

It's the best known performer on this benchmark, but still falls off quickly at even relatively modest context lengths (85% perf at 16K). (Cutting edge reasoning models like Gemini 2.5 Pro haven't been evaluated due to their cost and might outperform it.)

Re: GPT-4.1 in the API

#120

Can someone explain to me why we should take Aider's polyglot benchmark seriously? All the solutions are already available on the internet on which various models are trained, albeit in various ratios. Any variance could likely be due to the mix of the data.

To join in the faux rigor?
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