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Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

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Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#111

Post by boppo1 »

crooked-v wrote: post #4

I've seen some theories that it was actually an ADS (basically a low-power microwave beam, immensely painful but tuned to be just under the threshold to actually cause visible burns), since there haven't been any reported cases of permanent deafness yet. The student organizers in the crowd did an incredible job clearing people out of there before the police could escalate further and cause more mob-crowding panic dea…

>cases of permanent deafness

Ah so these sonic weapons are indeed seriously harmful. I was wondering if hearing loss was a result.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#112

Post by impossiblefork »

dmurray wrote: post #89
impossiblefork wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but these kinds of systems are not actually very good as military weapons. They are easily countered by simply shooting the operators.

Are they? They seem easy enough to operate remotely, or by a guy in a tank or a bulletproof Popemobile or whatever.

It's probably something like a horn, or a speaker. A couple of bullets are probably enough to break it.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#114

Post by perching_aix »

suddenclarity wrote: post #86
perching_aix wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hospitals too? Got any sources yourself for those? The government agencies denying it I don't find particularly damning, because it makes sense to me that they would deny it, even if they did use them.

Associated Press wrote this: > Belgrade’s emergency hospital has denied reports that many people sought help after the incident and urged legal action against those who “spread untrue information”.

Gonna be honest with you, "urged legal action against those who “spread untrue information”" sounds blatantly like propaganda to me. Can you imagine any decent healthcare worker responding like this to a situation like this, even if they disagree that such a weapon has been used?

But let's ignore that bit, not even important. If I read it right, the hospital "has denied reports that many people sought help". So they did not deny that those who did showed symptoms consistent of an LRAD or ASD deployment? Kind of a nothingburger I'd say.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#115

Post by sa46 »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #56
camilo2025 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are aware that these LRAD systems have been used against US citizens, aren't you?

Police also regularly use tear gas against US citizens. These are weapons that would violate the Geneva convention, but we're okay with them to disperse a crowd.

The Geneva Convention bans all chemical weapons. Part of the rationale for a total ban is to avoid escalating to more dangerous chemical agents. Helpful r/AskHistorians thread:

https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/gwtj89/the_c...

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#116

Post by mmooss »

impossiblefork wrote: post #36
hettygreen wrote: post #8

Is there any counter measure for this? Hardcore hearing protection? Noise cancelling headphones? Handheld sound insulation "shield"?

Once there's violence targeting you, the solution is to bring real weapons and resolve it using ordinary military tactics, that is, you kill the operator.

That sounds bold and exciting, but it's clearly false and terrible advice.

Violence, like warfare, is politics by other means. Every expert knows that law of warfare - the first law of warfare, in a sense - that it ends when and only when there is political agreement. Even in warfare, violence just buys time and changes your political position.

In countries with rule-of-law, you can use the political / legal system to stop the violence and hold accountable the perpetrators. In countries without, the only solution is political.

It's also well-established that non-violence and other tactics can be quite effective. While if you attack back and injure others, your credibility and legality is gone - nobody will listen to you or pay much attention to 'they started it' (which the other side will dispute anyway).

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#117

Post by impossiblefork »

tpm wrote: post #98
impossiblefork wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, although that was exceptionally irrational, to the point where I don't really feel I understand the events.

It would be rational if you would think killing a few (or a lot of) protesters will intimidate the rest of the country into submission. It didn't, but it could have.

But nobody thinks that way. If they can kill your friends, they can round you up afterwards and kill you.

Once it gets to that point, there's no reason not to immediately organize a military response.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#118

Post by codedokode »

casenmgreen wrote: post #20

Serbia is one of the Russian-controlled Governments, along with Hungary and Georgia; these are the countries where we expect to see such attacks made to suppress protest. (USA is not controlled, any more than say China is controlled, but is an authoritarian regime (so no real elections), so there's a shared world view, and here also I would expect to see much the same.)

It is not Russia-controlled but it has a long history of relationship with Russia: for example, Russian Empire entered WW1 to protect Serbia.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#119

Post by seabass-labrax »

laweijfmvo wrote: post #87
pclmulqdq wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police also regularly use tear gas against US citizens. These are weapons that would violate the Geneva convention, but we're okay with them to disperse a crowd.

are they against the Geneva convention because of the direct effects, or because in a war you’d then proceed to kill everyone while they’re coughing?

It's because of the direct effects; chlorine gas for instance will almost instantly blind anyone exposed to it, and tear gas can also be fatal. My great-grandfather was gassed in the First World War and only narrowly survived. Chemical weapons were technically already banned by this point, but it was WW1 that prompted the modern Geneva Protocol (not the Geneva Conventions; these are slight different). Unfortunately, none of the Geneva treaties cover their use outside of wartime.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#120

Post by giraffe_lady »

Philorandroid wrote: post #108
__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you were at a protest that was starting to get a bit rowdy and somebody used one of these on you, what would you do? I'd either come back prepared for actual violence, or switch from protest to sabotage. It just screams "escalation" to me.

Are chemical irritants preferable, then? Or just LEOs in riot gear with rubber batons? There's no amount of pushback or repercussion that a rioter will feel is fair or humane, and the mindset of "I'll turn violent and/or destructive if my participation in civil unrest is punished" is a perfect justification for these systems to exist.

> There's no amount of pushback or repercussion that a rioter will feel is fair or humane

I mean you're talking about using violence against people to stop or prevent property damage. Most options are off the table in the moment, in the same way you can't execute someone if you catch them vandalizing your car. Smashing their fingers with a hammer wouldn't probably kill them but you can't do that either.

After-the-fact repercussions like criminal charges or civil liabilities, well, it doesn't matter how they feel about it? That's not how court works.

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