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DOJ: Google must sell Chrome, Android could be next

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Re: DOJ: Google must sell Chrome, Android could be next

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Breaking up workspace would hinder Google in competing with Office and Zoho

Let me break out my violin for the trillion dollar transnational corporation.

Given that the likes of workspace and zoho were born out of Microsofts monopoly. I guess you should.

Re: DOJ: Google must sell Chrome, Android could be next

#112
post #6

This headline seems misleading; the way I'm reading this, it's still just a request to the courts, who will make the final decision right?

Yes. This is the DOJ’s proposal for what should happen now that Google was found guilty.

Google will make their own proposal, I think. Then the judge will decide.

Then 50 years of appeals.

Re: DOJ: Google must sell Chrome, Android could be next

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean this because he is topical but Musk makes the most sense. In the same way Brave has Brave Wallet, if Musk really wants to force his X Pay and Wallet on the world, integrating with the most popular browser is a solid move.

No way. He is part of the government forcing the sale. What have we come to in this country.

Trump has a meme coin used to grift the entire country. I'm surprised this potential conflict of interest is what is causing you to throw your hands up.

Re: DOJ: Google must sell Chrome, Android could be next

#114

Feel like splitting ad sales from search is the one meaningful structural change they could insist upon that would actually make a difference to Google's monopoly position. Anything like this is really more window-dressing than anything.

And then have ad companies bid on spots instead of companies? That just sounds like adding a middleman (inefficency) to the system. Like making me go to a car dealer instead of just adding to cart like anything else. The other alternative would be paying for search, in which case everyone would just leave for another search engine the next day. Which is honestly why I have so much calling google search a monopoly. Th…

The whole point is to introduce more players into the system so there is the possibility of competition. At present it is very efficient in the sense that you have a single company with monopolistic control over what content gets surfaced and how content gets monetised. That's a conflict of interest that's so obviously harmful to consumers Page and Brin actually call it out in the original "Anatomy of a Search Engine" paper.

    "Currently, the predominant business model for commercial search engines is advertising. The goals of the advertising business model do not always correspond to providing quality search to users...we expect that advertising funded search engines will be inherently biased towards the advertisers and away from the needs of the consumers.

    Since it is very difficult even for experts to evaluate search engines, search engine bias is particularly insidious."
http://infolab.stanford.edu/pub/papers/google.pdf (see the whole section entitled "Advertising and Mixed Motives".

Re: DOJ: Google must sell Chrome, Android could be next

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No way. He is part of the government forcing the sale. What have we come to in this country.

Trump has a meme coin used to grift the entire country. I'm surprised this potential conflict of interest is what is causing you to throw your hands up.

I'm nowhere near cool with that either...

Re: DOJ: Google must sell Chrome, Android could be next

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some companies / services are just not viable as a standalone company, but still provide immense value to customers. What will end up happening is not that Amazon will have to compete with others on video game streaming for example, what will happen is that video game streaming will disappear because not viable. Browsers won't suddenly flourish when Google cannot finance browsers anymore, they'll just turn to shit. P…

Why would browsers turn to "shit"? The web platform is quite capable these days. I think Chrome on Android is already pretty "shit" these days, because it doesn't support ad blocking at all.

*Points at firefox*

Re: DOJ: Google must sell Chrome, Android could be next

#117
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both of those countries dislike powerful, large corporations because they are a base of power that could compete with the state or party. The Wagner Group comes to mind. But China also did a huge crackdown affecting companies like Alibaba and Tencent. There's no reason why there can't be international co-operation on this subject.

> Both of those countries dislike powerful, large corporations because they are a base of power that could compete with the state or party. These countries are not different from any other in the world. The US also has anti-monopoly laws exactly for this reason: nobody wants a corporation that can compete with the government, be it democratic or not.

What does compete with the government mean?

Should FedEx not compete with USPS on parcel delivery?

Re: DOJ: Google must sell Chrome, Android could be next

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think monopolies should exist?

Instead of smashing up successful businesses, you should tax them, and use the tax revenue to improve deficiencies in the market. If the government thinks there should be more browsers, (or mobile os's) they should tax the existing ones and pay folks to improve the open source alternatives. You _should_ outlaw behavior that creates monopolies, like predatory pricing etc

> Instead of smashing up successful businesses, you should tax them, and use the tax revenue to improve deficiencies in the market.

The deficiency in the market is that laws exist that allow market concentration. Should we tax them to fund regulatory reform?

> If the government thinks there should be more browsers, (or mobile os's) they should tax the existing ones and pay folks to improve the open source alternatives.

Let's review the problem with Chrome.

Chromium is open source. Chrome is Chromium with some corporate misfeatures like DRM, but is also the thing with an advertising budget. Nobody notices that their browser quietly supports DRM, except that then more sites use it, and then open source browsers on open hardware cease to be viable because if you try to use it, it doesn't support the DRM, and then no matter how much better it is people won't use it because half the internet is broken.

If you made Chromium better, Google would just keep making Chrome based on Chromium and then Chrome would have all the improvements you made to Chromium and you've solved nothing. If you made a different open source browser under a license that didn't allow them to do that then they still have billions of dollars so if you do anything better then they can just add the same feature to Chrome. At which point people still don't use your thing because they want to watch Netflix, and Netflix continues to require windvine because the Judas browsers have the most market share so devices that support DRM are common and demanding it doesn't bankrupt them.

Or, you could fix the law that allows DRM to be used as a fig leaf for the true motivation of vendor lock-in and simply create an explicit adversarial interoperability exception to DMCA 1201, not only as a defense but as an affirmative right. Then the open source browser can legally break the DRM in order to implement an ad blocker and create a feature that Google won't put in Chrome, without giving Chrome any abilities the open alternative doesn't, allowing the alternative to gain market share.

> You _should_ outlaw behavior that creates monopolies, like predatory pricing etc

Predatory pricing isn't a cause of monopolies, it's a consequence. If it's happening, the last thing you want to do is ban it, because it's a red flag that tells you the market is broken and you need to fix it. If you leave the market broken, a company with enough market power to charge excessive margins has enough market power to screw the customer in a hundred other ways, and trying to ban every possible abuse of market power is a million times harder than smashing up monopolies.

Re: DOJ: Google must sell Chrome, Android could be next

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would browsers turn to "shit"? The web platform is quite capable these days. I think Chrome on Android is already pretty "shit" these days, because it doesn't support ad blocking at all.

*Points at firefox*

I use Firefox on desktop.

Firefox on Android is sadly not great either -- it regularly drops frames on my 120Hz Pixel 9 Pro. Firefox on iOS doesn't have extension support.

I hear Edge Canary on Android has extension support.

Re: DOJ: Google must sell Chrome, Android could be next

#120

Can we go back to buying software? This free software subsidized by big ad money has fucked the whole market up.

Agreed. Would much rather pay $100-200/year for ad-free OS / productivity software that is patched and secure and doesn't sell my data.

Alas, very people put that high a value on their privacy.

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