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Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

micahflee.com

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Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#111

Post by pydry »

thinkingemote wrote: post #36
wildzzz wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even the small group that tried to kidnap Whitmer had a suspected 12 informants and agents (3 confirmed informants, 2 agents) in the group. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gretchen_Whitmer_kidnapping_pl...

It's also worth pointing out that this pattern is kind of common. As here, these agents are often at the very top. Almost all Organisations of Interest will be compromised at the leadership level. It's something most grass roots activists don't feel intuitively at all. They look for spies among their own level but it's almost always going to be the organisers, the helpers, the ones with the van, the one that can prin…

I've often wondered if there is research on effective ways of preventing this - of compromise-proofing an institution.

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#112

Post by red-iron-pine »

Ancapistani wrote: post #98
Animats wrote: post #44

What the louder militia members and gun nuts are up to is no secret. Most of that stuff is quite visible. You worry about the ones who organize quietly. Here's "God, Family, and Guns", on YouTube.[1] This week, "What gun would Jesus carry?" (Answer: a 1911, the classic Army .45 automatic from 1911.) Besides, Trump doesn't need an SA. [1] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxFgFKxa3SD1WIZWmBRGEhg

> What the louder militia members and gun nuts are up to is no secret. For that matter, I'd include myself in the latter group. I'm reasonably vocal here - usually in an attempt to simply share my perspective, as it's not of the prevailing position in this community. Sure, "the gun nuts" have a different agenda than the larger community. We're gun nuts because that's important to us. I can't think of anything that I'…

> Lots of things that could be easily taken out of context, sure, and a fair number of things that are just plain inappropriate - but you could say the same for any community.

What kind of ridiculous copium is this?

i'm sure the quilting community says all sorts of terrible things that could be taken out of context.

the difference is they don't have a long history of gun violence. ain't no one showed up and killed 20 elementary kids with knitting needles. no one smuggled a crochet gear to a 17 year old and saw protesters crochet'd to death.

and what is your 2nd amendment right doing now? the government, and arguably global economy, is under threat and you're doing what exactly with these guns?

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#113

Post by psunavy03 »

ty6853 wrote: post #99
thinkingemote wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also worth pointing out that this pattern is kind of common. As here, these agents are often at the very top. Almost all Organisations of Interest will be compromised at the leadership level. It's something most grass roots activists don't feel intuitively at all. They look for spies among their own level but it's almost always going to be the organisers, the helpers, the ones with the van, the one that can prin…

The tactics are quite effective. If you put these rats in say the US Army and pursued such vigorous prosecution you could likely lock away the legit rank and file of both military and militias.

I'm sorry, are you basing that on your years of experience and significant expertise concerning the US military?

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#114

Post by red-iron-pine »

roenxi wrote: post #5
lurk2 wrote: post #3

> This is why this dataset is hard to wrap your head around: there's just sooo much here. It would take a ridiculous amount of time to try to manually read through it all. Also, at a glance at least, it appears that the bulk of it is idle chatter and conspiracy nonsense, presumably with evidence of crimes sprinkled in here or there. Not exactly hard-hitting journalism. He then goes on to speculate that Scot Seddon's…

> Not exactly hard-hitting journalism. But nonetheless fascinating. There are must be some really good PhD thesii written (to be written?) about how someone is supposed to handle this sort of data dump with modern tooling. It is a non-trivial general problem; we have a lot of really data floating around in public (Panama papers, relatively transparent government info, dumps of less transparent info at wikileaks.org,…

> Riots are fundamentally ineffective; I doubt anyone serious wants to be associated with rioters. I suppose stranger things happen.

bullshit. the only reason you have an 8 hour work day and a semblance of worker protections is because a lot of people fought and died for them.

it's the only reason 8 year olds don't go down into the mines, or lose hands working in factories.

Jan 6th made a serious run at congressional officials; the VP of the US basically had to hide or get lynched. this could have been a thing, but didn't go all the way.

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#115

Post by ty6853 »

psunavy03 wrote: post #113
ty6853 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tactics are quite effective. If you put these rats in say the US Army and pursued such vigorous prosecution you could likely lock away the legit rank and file of both military and militias.

I'm sorry, are you basing that on your years of experience and significant expertise concerning the US military?

Oh please chime in on how soldiers aren't subject to the same psychological influences of other humans, while charming us on your .mil street cred. I don't need to be a navy seal to understand this, veterans were among those charged in say the Whitmer plot.

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#116

Post by lurk2 »

potato3732842 wrote: post #93
lurk2 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both organizations have had reputations for being honeypots as early as 2016. There have been a number of instances of federal agents becoming embedded in the organizational structures of groups like this (see e.g. the Malheur Wildlife Standoff and the plot to assassinate Gretchen Whitmer). Groups of this scale tend to fall into one of three categories: 1) They are honeypots set up by policing and / or intelligence a…

The characterization of "informants" as being literal on the payroll feds is usually incorrect. They're usually genuine group members who are being manipulated by literal on the payroll feds. And you're missing a key feedback loop. The feds typically "create" an informant by digging up dirt on someone and blackmailing them into ratting on their buddies in exchange for non-prosecution. This informant then has a huge f…

> The characterization of "informants" as being literal on the payroll feds is usually incorrect. They're usually genuine group members who are being manipulated by literal on the payroll feds.

I never implied that they were.

> a federal agency [...] influences them into becoming informants. It's quite common for the FBI to frame this as "helping to keep people safe"; leaders in groups like this are frequently easy to manipulate with flattery.

> And you're missing a key feedback loop. The feds typically "create" an informant by digging up dirt on someone and blackmailing them into ratting on their buddies in exchange for non-prosecution.

I missed no such thing. Did you even read my comment?

> compromised after a federal agency threatens the leadership with jail time

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#117

Post by potato3732842 »

dingnuts wrote: post #106
potato3732842 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The characterization of "informants" as being literal on the payroll feds is usually incorrect. They're usually genuine group members who are being manipulated by literal on the payroll feds. And you're missing a key feedback loop. The feds typically "create" an informant by digging up dirt on someone and blackmailing them into ratting on their buddies in exchange for non-prosecution. This informant then has a huge f…

hence my confusion at the sudden "left" outcry over the attacks on the FBI and CIA, two organizations they have been bemoaning for my entire life, and with good reason! Those organizations are responsible for some of the absolute worst behavior associated with American history, the most shameful of shameful episodes throughout the Americas were started by the CIA and FBI. I think the outcry is actually mostly media-o…

>hence my confusion at the sudden "left" outcry over the attacks on the FBI and CIA, two organizations they have been bemoaning for my entire life

I have been saying it for over a decade, the western world is having a crisis of principals, not a crisis of policy. The inability to implement good policy (both public and private) is a symptom.

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#118

Post by ty6853 »

red-iron-pine wrote: post #112
Ancapistani wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What the louder militia members and gun nuts are up to is no secret. For that matter, I'd include myself in the latter group. I'm reasonably vocal here - usually in an attempt to simply share my perspective, as it's not of the prevailing position in this community. Sure, "the gun nuts" have a different agenda than the larger community. We're gun nuts because that's important to us. I can't think of anything that I'…

> Lots of things that could be easily taken out of context, sure, and a fair number of things that are just plain inappropriate - but you could say the same for any community. What kind of ridiculous copium is this? i'm sure the quilting community says all sorts of terrible things that could be taken out of context. the difference is they don't have a long history of gun violence. ain't no one showed up and killed 20…

>the government, and arguably global economy, is under threat and you're doing what exactly with these guns?

What do you suggest is done with the guns about that? You want us to kill over disagreement on economic policy?

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#119

Post by lurk2 »

noneeeed wrote: post #56
lurk2 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both organizations have had reputations for being honeypots as early as 2016. There have been a number of instances of federal agents becoming embedded in the organizational structures of groups like this (see e.g. the Malheur Wildlife Standoff and the plot to assassinate Gretchen Whitmer). Groups of this scale tend to fall into one of three categories: 1) They are honeypots set up by policing and / or intelligence a…

I've been struck by how often it is really quite senior people within criminal/terrorist organisations are the ones that get turned by the various agencies. In the UK, there was an informant for MI5 in the IRA for years codenamed Steaknife. It turned out he was the head of IRA internal security, it was his job to hunt moles. He was the perfect agent. I seem to remember a story of a mafia don who turned out to be an i…

They are the highest value targets who coordinate the group's activities. Most will have done something at some point that could land them in prison for a long time; this is how they are typically turned. The ones that haven't done anything the feds can feasibly threaten them with often get bribed, which is where things can get really messy because you end up with policing organizations essentially permitting organized crime under a series of conditions (e.g. keep things quiet and we won't bother you). There are many documented instances of this happening on the street level, and some evidence to suggest it is occurring at the national level and the international level. It can be counter-intuitive to think of these organizations being so easily compromised, but a good rule of thumb is that no organization dedicated to criminal or subversive activity is going to evade the attention of the feds, and once that attention is there, they will almost never be able to outspend them. It's comparable to a small business trying to harden their systems against a state actor.

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#120

Post by lurk2 »

pjc50 wrote: post #74
noneeeed wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been struck by how often it is really quite senior people within criminal/terrorist organisations are the ones that get turned by the various agencies. In the UK, there was an informant for MI5 in the IRA for years codenamed Steaknife. It turned out he was the head of IRA internal security, it was his job to hunt moles. He was the perfect agent. I seem to remember a story of a mafia don who turned out to be an i…

Bob Lambert https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Lambert_(undercover_police... was one of the people responsible for the 'McLibel' leaflet that turned into the UK's longest running libel case. These days it looks to me like Extinction Rebellion (XR) are being run by spies, since all their activities are so counter-productive in terms of making people hate environmentalism.

The Lambert case is wild. I genuinely didn't believe it when I first read about it just because it was so bizarre.
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