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Should managers still code?

theengineeringmanager.substack.com

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Re: Should managers still code?

#111

Post by etamponi »

option wrote: post #110
etamponi wrote: post #109

No. The amount of work that a manager has to handle to do their job right is incompatible with coding at a professional rate. If you have a manager that codes, then they won't have (enough) time to: - Write and design your packets (if in a corporation), or your career path (if in a smaller company) - Align with other teams, get consensus, shield you from politics beyond your level. - Make long term planning and makin…

I am a manger and the best I can do is occasionally fix minor bugs and improve public docs. I feel like doing that is very important to better “stay in touch” with the product.

Kudos for that! And lucky :) I think we agree that no much time is left a part from minor bug fixes :)

Re: Should managers still code?

#112

Post by mrinterweb »

etamponi wrote: post #109

No. The amount of work that a manager has to handle to do their job right is incompatible with coding at a professional rate. If you have a manager that codes, then they won't have (enough) time to: - Write and design your packets (if in a corporation), or your career path (if in a smaller company) - Align with other teams, get consensus, shield you from politics beyond your level. - Make long term planning and makin…

I've seen manager calendars, and their days are packed with meetings. Expecting them to do in depth code reviews, pairing, is unrealistic.

I think eng managers should rely on their ICs to inform them of what is going on, and the manager should be the advocate for IC dev needs. Devs should be able to tell their manager what the pain points engineering is experiencing and the manager should advocate on behalf of their team.

Re: Should managers still code?

#113

Post by bradlys »

I find a good manager treats me like a peer and not some superior. Part of that is being in the trenches and having experience with what I'm working on. Maybe they're not taking on entire features anymore or doing the same level of code review as others but I think for a manager who manages ICs - they should be much closer to the code. Maybe this would be the "team lead" in some companies or a supervisor type role but I think I prefer that kind of person to be my actual manager than some other nebulous person who doesn't even interact with me on a daily basis.

A big problem I had with some managers who didn't code was that they sometimes had wild expectations. They were also not good mentors. They couldn't really teach you much of anything because their job was so distinctly different from what you were doing.

Re: Should managers still code?

#114

Post by [deleted] »

peterldowns wrote: post #70
kevinventullo wrote: post #20

One important distinction to make is the difference between a manager who started out as an IC on the project (esp. the case when they actually built the thing from the ground up) versus a manager brought in from the outside. I think the former is more likely to be hands-on and generally speaking the expert in the room. But, sometimes you need the latter. It can be challenging (even counterproductive) for the latter…

I’m curious, how have you seen the “outside” manager build trust/confidence/respect with the team without doing at least some engineering work?

[deleted]

Re: Should managers still code?

#117

Post by dan_can_code »

pragma_x wrote: post #48

Should they be able to? Absolutely. Should they exercise this on projects they manage? Probably not. I ran into this problem years ago. It's not exactly good form to be manager that contributes to the team's project, is at the apex of code review, and is responsible for team performance reviews, all at the same time. It can work, but without other people at your level reviewing your work, you'd be asking the team you…

To "lose face" with a team shows a lack of trust. I think it's fine if you don't have a perfect solution, but require some eyes on your work. But you're right, if you don't have people your level (or better yet, more experienced) reviewing your work, getting an honest code review is challenging.

Re: Should managers still code?

#118

Post by notepad0x90 »

Big no! from me.

Anyone in a people leadership role has to have a political mindset. You simply cannot be technically oriented and politically oriented at the same time. This is not a negative, the human brain, generally speaking, can't focus on two unrelated priorities at the same time.

I have had a highly negative experience over this. When resolving technical conflicts, you expect technical merit and reasoning to be used. But managers who also meddle in technical affairs use political leverage and tactics to see their desired technical outcome. This is a very unpleasant and toxic affair overall.

Imagine trying to solve a bug, but your manager wants a specific work around implemented which will result in bigger problems down the road. If you disagree with your manager, your performance review will suffer, you will be called disagreeable, hard to work with,etc.. You are only considering the best course of action from a technical perspective. Your technical peers can also review your code and reasoning and you can debate in a civilized manner over the technical merits of the issue. But as soon as a manger is involved, things will get toxic fast. It is nearly impossible to avoid micromanagement as well.

Especially if the manager really knows what they're talking about. Then they'll really be looking over everyone's shoulders and causing drama.

It is such a disorienting thing, having to fight political drama over simple and straightforward matters. This is how I learned what gaslighting is! I would be reaching out to people I consider a lot smarter than myself, asking their opinion on the subject (and they'd mostly agree with me), because I legitimately got disoriented and doubted everything I knew.

I really hope none of you experience this. At least when someone is being mean/toxic for other reasons you can explain it away, but when they use their technical expertise, that's a whole new level.

The whole concept of your management trusting you with the details and expecting you to show result goes out the window this way.

Re: Should managers still code?

#119

Post by __erik »

People never discuss company size along with this question.

If you're at a giant company, the answer is likely no, there's enough politicing and paperwork where the highest impact thing to be done by a manager is likely not coding.

If you're at a startup / smaller more nimble org in a big company, the answer is likely yes, if you've gotten to the point where you're a manager, in theory you're a very good engineer and you should spend your time coding, but on things that aren't on critical path. Bug backlog, experimental things with no hard deadlines, proof of concepts, all of these are valuable things. Leading from the front is also just generally good with smaller groups.

Also under discussed by people having these debates (typically managers), is not acknowledging how bad most managers are at coding, especially if their job hasn't required them to code in a while. I see all the time that managers look for any excuse not to code, because it would reveal to their team that they're at best an L4 level coder after being in management for 5-10 years.

Re: Should managers still code?

#120

Post by tschellenbach »

Keep in mind that many companies don't do non-coding engineering leaders anymore. So from a career perspective, if you take a role that's non-coding, you are making yourself unemployable for large parts of small - medium sized companies, as well as larger companies that don't do this.
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