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Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

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111–120 of 208 posts

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#111
post #60
post #37

Other people have documented Herbert's obsession with the californian ecology movement and dune re-establishment. I think he took things happening in small scale and used them as filler/detail to a story he wanted to tell in large scale.

Oregon not California. https://niche-canada.org/2020/04/24/frank-herberts-ecology-a...

The Oregon dunes are a great place to visit (at least, I enjoyed them) - not like anything else you'll find in North America.

And you can tell people you've been to the dunes that inspired "Dune" :)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_Dunes_National_Recrea...

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#112

When I finally got around to reading Seven Pillars , I wasn't too far in before I was convinced Herbert had the book on his desk the whole time he was writing Dune . So many minor similarities, little scenes that don't quite match up but if you squint they do. Even the arc toward eventually committing war crimes, while seeking some great end for the people he's leading, feels like a connection. But also little stuff…

What's ironic is how people often point to plot points in many franchises (Star Wars, GoT, etc) as being derivative of Dune... Yet Dune itself is fairly derivative of other works

I had friends that raved about Dune. Think they actually read the book.

Later saw the movie and kept thinking there would be a twist. Was largely disappointed but the mother starting a holy war was a bit intriguing.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#113
post #109

I'm 100% onboard with the 'Lawrence of Arabia inspired Dune' theory but I think one of the cleverest things Herbert did with Dune is to introduce a 'visionary substance' (spice) into the otherwise austere Islamic-adjacent motif. He not only shrouded the spice in ritual and religion (which isn't THAT suprising considering many human societies used visionary substsances, and Herbert was a child of the 1960s psychedelic…

Plus oil geopolitics

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has relatively little relevance to Dune, which is basically the story of how the worse dictator in history rose to power (only to be surpassed by his son's 1200 year reign of tyranny).

Very interesting point of view, considering how Baron Harkonnen was depicted in Dune. I mean, was the life in Empire better or worse after he took power? Did life of common citizen changed much? My view was that he basically just replaced Emperor by himself and most of things was still the same. He even married the princess just for pretence. My view was that Herbert was trying to show how we could try to direct huma…

> Was not this the real moral of the story? Resist stagnant empire and explore the universe? Basically the same as Foundation that is book from the same era?

I think the "moral" of Dune shifts pretty dramatically between Messiah and Children. Dune and Messiah are essentially a warning about charismatic leaders reshaping the world in their eyes, abusing religion and faith to do so, and harming all humanity in the process whilst losing their own. Paul Atreides is not a desert mouse, but a sandworm that consumes all in his path. This isn't even subtext, it's basically stated explicitly both in the text and in later writing/talks by Herbert himself.

In the later books I think it shifts a bit to a story that one must lose their humanity in order to save it, and it's important that Leto is not Paul.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#116
post #109

I'm 100% onboard with the 'Lawrence of Arabia inspired Dune' theory but I think one of the cleverest things Herbert did with Dune is to introduce a 'visionary substance' (spice) into the otherwise austere Islamic-adjacent motif. He not only shrouded the spice in ritual and religion (which isn't THAT suprising considering many human societies used visionary substsances, and Herbert was a child of the 1960s psychedelic…

Plus oil geopolitics

Yeah, that's smart too. And how the "Spacefaring Guild" requires spice to navigate the best routes between the stars. Oil for transport. Everyone brought to their needs by Pauls' threat to switch off the oil supply. It's all so smart, Herbert was a hypergenius I think.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#117
post #109

I'm 100% onboard with the 'Lawrence of Arabia inspired Dune' theory but I think one of the cleverest things Herbert did with Dune is to introduce a 'visionary substance' (spice) into the otherwise austere Islamic-adjacent motif. He not only shrouded the spice in ritual and religion (which isn't THAT suprising considering many human societies used visionary substsances, and Herbert was a child of the 1960s psychedelic…

Plus oil geopolitics

[deleted]

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fremen jihad killed 61 billion people across the empire, including the sterilization of 90 whole planets, per details in Dune Messiah (quoting from a wiki, I don't have this kind of memory). It may be that life in the empire after this was over returned more or less to the same as what was there before, for those that survived - though I don't think the books go into any significant detail. Life on Dune was defin…

It may be because I have read this like 20 years ago but I remember something in a sense of accomplishment from Leto II when he was killed. Like: there is no way of stopping it now - the spread of humanity in the universe. So according to me first book was a bit dark: - Paul accomplishing his goal but failing ultimatively - per what you are saying - starting the jihad - In the second he is killed but we have his chil…

I think your memory is mostly right. Leto II essentially wanted to instill into humanity this lesson, do not fall for the words of the prophet, permanently: his reign would forever be remembered as the hell that this can lead to. And yes, he was satisfied with being killed, as this was the goal of his plan as well: torture humanity for a thousand years, teaching them a lesson they will never forget (especially in the universe of Dune, where genetic memory is a thing), and then be defeated by them, teaching also that no evil is too big to overcome. Note that this is about any prophet, false or true. Both Paul and Leto II were true prophets, but this made them no less dangerous.

But Paul is exactly the failed version of Leto II. Paul saw the option of doing what his son did, but didn't have the courage to do it. He instead chose to believe that he can become the benevolent dictator that would uplift humanity through his strong moral core, and instead brought only needless suffering to the galaxy and to all those around him.

The good future that Leto II fought for is one where every human is truly unique and free, spreading in a thousand distinct directions, impossible to predict for anyone (which also implies that they are impossible to lead as an overall group, as they will never again accept to follow someone else).

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#119
post #109

I'm 100% onboard with the 'Lawrence of Arabia inspired Dune' theory but I think one of the cleverest things Herbert did with Dune is to introduce a 'visionary substance' (spice) into the otherwise austere Islamic-adjacent motif. He not only shrouded the spice in ritual and religion (which isn't THAT suprising considering many human societies used visionary substsances, and Herbert was a child of the 1960s psychedelic…

It bothers me that this doesn't actually sound that far from what a lot of folks seem to genuinely think? People are desperate for a panacea. But only if it works on the elites, it seems. Heaven forbid we come up with something that merely helps people lose weight.

Worse, a lot of people mistake euphoria moments for being right.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#120

When I finally got around to reading Seven Pillars , I wasn't too far in before I was convinced Herbert had the book on his desk the whole time he was writing Dune . So many minor similarities, little scenes that don't quite match up but if you squint they do. Even the arc toward eventually committing war crimes, while seeking some great end for the people he's leading, feels like a connection. But also little stuff…

What's ironic is how people often point to plot points in many franchises (Star Wars, GoT, etc) as being derivative of Dune... Yet Dune itself is fairly derivative of other works

adding to this... Avatar is often thought of as unique, but it's a blatant copy paste of Timothy Zahn's "Manta's Gift"

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/216441.Manta_s_Gift

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