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Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

swedenherald.com

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Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#111

Post by hx8 »

disruptiveink wrote: post #60
BoredPositron wrote: post #13

While I don't personally agree with the law, I genuinely hope we witness a major corporation withdraw from a market just so we can finally observe the concrete impact of these types of threats. (Even though their position is understandable in this particular case.)

Google ultimately did that for China. The outcome in that case is that the domestic market filled in the gaps, while complying to all relevant authoritarian legislation. I do not believe that the same would happen for every market where these stunts are being pulled off, at least not to the same level of quality. Why are European countries trying to pull one off from the China playbook, while simultaneously being sho…

Having to build local alternatives probably had a positive impact on China's software industry. We're at a point today that major Chinese software/tech companies are routinely talked about on nightly news.

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#112

Post by [deleted] »

docdeek wrote: post #56
bramhaag wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, only some claim to "remain committed to offering our users the highest level of security for their personal data" while turning off E2EE cloud storage for an entire country.

What other choice did Apple have? To ignore the law of a country where you operate just because you don't agree with the law is a terrible standard to set.

[deleted]

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#113

Post by lxgr »

radlad wrote: post #102
louwrentius wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be wrong, but it proves that technology can't beat politics and policy. The issue with Apple caving to UK demands regarding encryption, and now Signal being in a similar situation, shows that you can't just focus on technology and ignore policy and politics. And you'll find out that a ton of people here on HN will care, but most of the public won't. People should take XKCD 538 really to heart (The 5$ wrench on…

Did Apple cave to UK's demands? I thought instead they removed their product from the market, like Signal. We're talking about companies though, not technology. Something like Bitcoin or BitTorrent can be regulated, but not stopped.

Not fully, but making transacting in Bitcoin outright illegal would probably go a long way to making it completely unattractive to 99% of all potential users.

And if Apple and Google were forced to remove all wallets from their app stores, it would largely be game over.

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#114

Post by TheCapeGreek »

brookst wrote: post #85
diggan wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep seeing this idea that because a company is headquartered in some place, means they don't have to follow the laws of the countries where they operate. Yes, Signal may be headquartered in the US, but that doesn't mean they can just ignore the laws of other countries, which is exactly what may happen here, depending on the outcome. Sweden may propose a backdoor (a utterly shitty idea, I agree) which Signal may de…

Not familiar with Swedish law, but in most of the world the courts have a concept of jurisdiction. Otherwise a small country could just fine Apple $1T and solve its budget woes, and probably build a giant waterslide. I would be surprised if Swedish law allowed for prosecuting a foreign company with not one bit of operations in the country.

> a foreign company with not one bit of operations in the country.

Borrowing from how tax & law is usually applied for companies trading outside of their incorporated country, at least in many places including the EU: If you have users/customers in a certain country, even if your product is purely software, you can be considered to have operations in that country.

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#115

Post by ben_w »

docdeek wrote: post #56
bramhaag wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, only some claim to "remain committed to offering our users the highest level of security for their personal data" while turning off E2EE cloud storage for an entire country.

What other choice did Apple have? To ignore the law of a country where you operate just because you don't agree with the law is a terrible standard to set.

Terrible yes, but given Musk-X-Brazil, at this point the Rubicon of "setting" such standards has already been crossed.

(Even if the result was Musk being humiliated).

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#116

Post by hedora »

marcinzm wrote: post #81
vaylian wrote: post #10

There is a reason why Free Software (as in freedom) was invented: To ensure that those who create the software do not overpower those who use the software. The idea, that companies or politicians can force the user's machine to work against it's owner, is wrong. And it is wrong, because to be a human in the 21st century means in most cases, that your digital devices and your digital interactions are a core part of wh…

> Invading the privacy of one's digital space is a violation that goes as deep as reading someone's diary when we look back and the time when life was more analog. Which police with a warrant can very much do.

There’s no warrant protection in this bill. They want to keep a copy of everyone’s data so they can look back at old stuff after the fact.

Even if there was warrant protection, I’d still be against it. People have traditionally had the right to speak to each other without giving a transcript to the police. I think it’s unreasonable to make that illegal.

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#117

Post by skybrian »

vaylian wrote: post #10

There is a reason why Free Software (as in freedom) was invented: To ensure that those who create the software do not overpower those who use the software. The idea, that companies or politicians can force the user's machine to work against it's owner, is wrong. And it is wrong, because to be a human in the 21st century means in most cases, that your digital devices and your digital interactions are a core part of wh…

This principle seems out of touch with most people’s reality: products hardly ever do everything you want and often work against you. If someone has a device that doesn’t do what they want and there’s no setting to change its behavior, replacing it is usually the only practical option. (Or if it’s a problem with an app, they might be able to install a different app.)

If there is a free software license, it’s of no direct use to them. Only software developers care about such things. (There is an indirect effect on what software is available.)

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#118

Post by genewitch »

smokel wrote: post #48
vaylian wrote: post #10

There is a reason why Free Software (as in freedom) was invented: To ensure that those who create the software do not overpower those who use the software. The idea, that companies or politicians can force the user's machine to work against it's owner, is wrong. And it is wrong, because to be a human in the 21st century means in most cases, that your digital devices and your digital interactions are a core part of wh…

Unfortunately, the philosophy of Free Software does not account for the scale at which software is being run now. Having the source code to a printer driver available is a completely different thing than being dependent on a platform, because all your friends and relations are using it. Personally, I'd only trust a governmental agency to provide such services, which makes the article we're discussing ironic at the le…

A government run social anything would be the most milquetoast experience, wouldn't it?

I suppose if I needed to make sure there was a public immutable record of something it would be useful. Like "I made this thing no later than this post"

But who would use it?

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#120

Post by lxgr »

throwaway28409 wrote: post #42
vaylian wrote: post #10

There is a reason why Free Software (as in freedom) was invented: To ensure that those who create the software do not overpower those who use the software. The idea, that companies or politicians can force the user's machine to work against it's owner, is wrong. And it is wrong, because to be a human in the 21st century means in most cases, that your digital devices and your digital interactions are a core part of wh…

> The idea, that companies or politicians can force the user's machine to work against it's owner, is wrong. You are hinting at something important here. Let me strengthen your point: to own an object means to subject it fully to your own will. If the object can act in a way that favors someone else's interests over yours, you do not own it. This is true of pretty much any device running proprietary software. A litmu…

> to own an object means to subject it fully to your own will

Not by a long shot. Just a few counterexamples from the top of my head: Destroying currency, altering passports, reproducing copyrighted images.

I'm not saying I'm a fan of even more exceptions of that kind, but I don't think there are any particular inherent rights arising from property ownership beyond from what society agrees on there are (e.g. the first sale doctrine for physical media). That's what makes it even more important to codify these rights.

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