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Google defends scrapping AI pledges and DEI goals in all-staff meeting

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Re: Google defends scrapping AI pledges and DEI goals in all-staff meeting

#111
post #83

To the people defending the reduction in Google's DEI program, I want to tell you that you are missing the point. For some reason, they think DEI means some unqualified woman or minority is taking the position over someone more qualified. That is not the case. DEI was created because corporate leadership structures were "the good old boys club" where less qualified people were hired because they knew someone or were…

In theory, I'm a proponent of DEI. But your description is every description: "People have bias when hiring." That's the easy part to explain. A clear summary of how the solution can be fair is never quite spelled out (either because it isn't fair, or because explaining it clearly and briefly is intractable). "The fair amount of each of type person" is impossible to define, so there's no way to fairly get us there.

I.e. we can demonstrate that the scale is unfair, but we can't measure exactly how. The results of the bias are apparent, but the bias itself is unobservable. But when we put a thumb on it, that's highly observable, and we know the thumb doesn't know exactly whom to prefer over whom. You can't possibly expect humans to not revolt against that.

More practically speaking: Yes, the loud assholes focus on unqualified people theoretically being hired, but even if you dismiss them, there are still a bunch of people who won't be able to ignore the fact that, while DEI will cause the best candidate to sometimes be hired when they otherwise wouldn't, it intuitively causes the still-qualified-but-not-as-qualified candidate to be hired at least as often. Additionally, being denied by human bias (unconscious bias, charitably) is less angering than being denied by policy.

Re: Google defends scrapping AI pledges and DEI goals in all-staff meeting

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does professional sports go through a DEI phase?? Professional sports are one of the few true meritocracies in the world, where the best players, no matter their race, religion or gender, will play.

What an ignorant take. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseball_color_line https://operations.nfl.com/inside-football-ops/players-legen...

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Re: Google defends scrapping AI pledges and DEI goals in all-staff meeting

#113

I always wonder how they do it. These spineless corporate suits. One month they're shoving DEI down your throat ("underrepresented, marginalized"), next month they're killing these programs and writing that they have always hired the "best" people for the job. Obviously, some people of the organization are different, but not all. How do they do it? Just treat it like a job and do whatever the bag full of money demand…

You tell yourself it's a well intentioned effort and that it works well, brining in people you otherwise would have missed. And then you later say "mission accomplished," the program ran its course, no longer doing the job it was made to do, pat yourself on the back both times for your good decision making. It might even be true both times! And you can't know it wasn't, so it's possible to believe it.

Re: Google defends scrapping AI pledges and DEI goals in all-staff meeting

#114

I usually evaluate people based on how they behave by their own stated values and codes. It's been a good rule. What's been amazing to me is how skin-deep the stated values across the tech industry were. Virtually every executive is behaving in ways they would fire their employees for just a few months ago. The executives have no moral compass as human beings. I believed this to be the case before, since the people I…

It's more-or-less impossible to become a sufficiently-senior executive at a sufficiently-large company without being a psychopath. You should have a baseline assumption that all executives at large corporations have no values whatsoever beyond doing what benefits them personally, you'll be a lot less surprised at their behavior if you do.

That's generally my assumption, but with some exceptions. What selects for psychopaths is the process of climbing the corporate ladder. However, there are ways to get to the top of the corporate ladder without climbing it.

For example, Larry and Sergei didn't seem like psychopaths. Neither did Omar Bose. Many other founders aren't.

Ditto for most processes with extreme selective pressures (e.g. most senator, PoTUS, many elite academics, elite law firm partner, etc.). People win by optimizing to the process. People with ethics, or who don't cheat, don't win. There are exceptions, but they're in the minority. For example, if you are an extreme genius or stumble on a major breakthrough, in science, and don't have it stolen by a psychopath.

You got downvoted, so I'll provide two references:

* Power by Pfeffer

* Dictator's Handbook by Bruce Bueno de Mesquita

Very different takes, but same general conclusion. Both are respected academics at Stanford and NYU, respectively, with de Mesquita being far more respected, and an excellent read. Power is a bit less so

Re: Google defends scrapping AI pledges and DEI goals in all-staff meeting

#115
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its preferential hiring or at minimum recruiting/sourcing on the basis of race, its discriminatory by definition

DE..Inclusion. Not sure what definition you’re looking up, but it is not discriminatory by definition.

It depends which side you look at it from. Increasing diversity of the group being hired into, means that a potentially discriminatory hiring approach must be taken, depending on the candidate applying.

Re: Google defends scrapping AI pledges and DEI goals in all-staff meeting

#116
post #103
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a circular definition; stating it’s not about preferential hiring but then saying it’s about not giving a certain demographic preferential treatment. “Enjoyed” is not the right word either. It’s better explained by stating the tech industry is dominated by certain demographics because that’s just how it is, and DEI initiatives give preferential treatment to those who are not in those demographics, in an attemp…

“Enjoyed” is not the right word either. For the last 500 years white men have had preferential treatment when it came to hiring. Indeed a stronger word than “enjoyed” is merited. But you think using “enjoyed” is too strong a word to use to describe such a state of affairs?

Perhaps “benefited from” is a better term. One that doesn’t have an emotional connotation.

Re: Google defends scrapping AI pledges and DEI goals in all-staff meeting

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does professional sports go through a DEI phase?? Professional sports are one of the few true meritocracies in the world, where the best players, no matter their race, religion or gender, will play.

I have a more nuanced take on whether professional sports are actually a meritocracy. It depends on the level at which you look. Yes, in any given event it’s generally fair to say the rules are equitable. However, look at golf - we can either accept white people have some genetic advantage, or that access is not equal and the best talent never got a chance to develop. This could be extended to other leagues as well.…

PGA players are about 75% white. That’s not far off from the US population.

Re: Google defends scrapping AI pledges and DEI goals in all-staff meeting

#118
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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It's funny that this could be interpreted as either far left (the biases against marginalized people need to be heavily counteracted in order for them to succeed) or far right (without DEI they would be unable to succeed on their own merits because they are less able than the typical white male straight christians). What it can't be interpreted as is reasonable. It's insulting no matter how you look at it, either pat…

"It's insulting no matter how you look at it, either paternalistic or white supremecist"

I'm puking in my mouth a little.

Pretty clear we know you fall on this issue. I read a good post today: Don't try to explain Kendrick Lamar to someone Harriet Tubman would shoot.

e: I create a new account for each post because I value privacy, and not fake internet points.

Re: Google defends scrapping AI pledges and DEI goals in all-staff meeting

#119
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s easy to demonize DEI for the reasons I stated above. It’s because I don’t follow the news media that I haven’t fallen for the DEI Scare that has gripped white society. It’s modern America’s version of blaming everything on communism. We live in a society where no one calls a wholly unqualified moron like Hegseth a “DEI hire” but people referred to Karine Jean-Pierre as such.

i think there are two questions: 1. in practice, does “DEI”/AA typically mean using race to influence hiring decisions? i think the answer is unequivocally yes, not taking a position on the merit of doing so. 2. Has “DEI” become some sort of boogeyman that is almost equivalent to communism of a past era? Yes, I agree with you - it has really accelerated in the past year and people are using it in ways that don’t even…

So my comment then wasn’t directed to you. It was directed to those with more extreme views on what DEI means and to those reading. Apologies for casting too wide a net.

Re: Google defends scrapping AI pledges and DEI goals in all-staff meeting

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

are you saying that white people are inherently more qualified than anybody else .

People remember famous scientists like Einstein, Feynman, or even Bill Nye the Science Guy, and believe it's obvious that white men are more qualified in STEM, and anyone denying it is in denial. They ignore that before the Equal Employment Opportunity Act of 1972, discrimination was legal in the US, and that Ivy League universities only started admitting women from 1969 to 1981 (depending on the university). People…

Bill Nye isn't a scientist.

Einstein moved to the US well after he became a famous scientist. The University of Zurich, where he got his degree, has been open to women since the mid 19th century.

The Ivy League first started admitting women in 1870 (Cornell). The rest, however, were far later.

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