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How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

reuters.com

111–120 of 311 posts

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#111
post #8

Japanese carmakers are going to become irrelevant [1] unless there's a major change. But that's very unlikely due to: 1. Supply chains and key raw materials mostly controlled by China 2. Japan's demographic collapse 3. Japanese Gen Z fed up with an unwinnable rat race where they live to just pay rent and groceries It's very sad. [1] https://carnewschina.com/2025/01/13/byd-surpass-toyota-in-ja...

There's one graph that basically predicts which countries are going to fail and which are going to prevail. It's the graph that shows how many people in the "doing things" age bracket a country has. Compare these: (germany) https://population.un.org/wpp/graphs?loc=276&type=Probabilis... (alternatively, Europe as a whole) https://population.un.org/wpp/graphs?loc=908&type=Probabilis... (Japan) https://population.un.org…

For one on a data level that's not an accurate statement even limited to the countries in question, here's productivity: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/labor-productivity-per-ho...

Europe has largely converged on American growth, the East in particular continues to grow fast. But more important is that this is obviously an intentionally selective group of countries. Add Taiwan or South Korea to this story and it becomes a lot more complicated, because the latter is about to/has overtaken Japan on a per capita basis while having some of the worst demographics on the planet.

There's research by Keyu Jin that actually shows the opposite, globally growth after the year 2000 has been faster in aging countries for the simple reason that it increases returns on labor saving technology, i.e. automation (telling image:https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/13645.jpeg) and that is, even if you are conservative on technological developments in the next few decades, likely to accelerate quickly.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#112

While this is HN so any automotive conversation inevitabely becomes an ideological war between EV vs ICE fanatics, this didn't play as significant a role in the failure of Nissan and Honda's merger. As stated in the article - "the merger talks unravelled in a little more than a month due to Nissan's pride and insufficient alarm about its predicament" More critically, Japanese automakers have always tried to diversify…

>While this is HN so any automotive conversation inevitabely becomes an ideological war between EV vs ICE fanatics, this didn't play as significant a role in the failure of Nissan and Honda's merger.

I cant stand Teslas, and tesla look alikes, they feel like sitting inside of an iPad. I think GWM has the right of it. Just pump out hybrids and EV's that feel as much the same as an ICE vehicle as possible. Let the customer decide.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#113
post #2

IMO a Honda Nissan merger would have been terrible for Honda. Nissan is clearly an anchor, and acquiring it would have just dragged Honda down .

Its too bad since Honda has seemed to have totally lost its luster the past decade or so. Honda was Apple to Toyota's Microsoft for a long time, now their cars are bland and undifferentiated, rather than the innovative leaders they used to be.

Still pissed they removed the Jazz from the australian market. It was honestly my definition of perfect small car for 10 years.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about Mazda?

TLDR; Mazda should merge with Nissan while they still can do it on a fire sale. Mazda is a huge outlier in manfacturing because they are small, but have motorsports calibre/history (meaning they have a history of homologating sports cars.) Mazda sells an order of magnitude less cars than even newer companies like BYD. Even less than isuzu. Because of this, they can more tightly control investor expectations, profit/l…

This is an odd comment.

> Mazda sells an order of magnitude less cars than even newer companies like BYD. Even less than isuzu.

Mazda sold 1.1M cars in 2023[1]. By comparison Nissan sold 2.9M, BYD 2.6M (obviously this is much less than an order of magnitude difference.

> Mazda is a huge outlier in manfacturing because they are small, but have motorsports calibre/history (meaning they have a history of homologating sports cars.)

Plenty of manufactures have motorsports history. Mazda has a Le Mons win, but apart from that nothing particularly of note. Notably Peugeot and Subaru both have much broader motorsports history and are smaller, and Renault has much much more impressive motorsport pedigree and only sells slightly more cars (1.4M in 2023).

> [Mazda sells an order of magnitude less cars than even newer companies like BYD. Even less than isuzu.] Because of this, they can more tightly control investor expectations, profit/loss. The stock value rarely changes, nevermind grows, so investors are confident in stability and dividends.

This is an argument that is rarely (never?) made, and not born out by the evidence.

Mazda's sales, profit and stock price have all been falling. Their stock price is down from 1700 Yen in 2024 to 1034 Yen today. It's difficult to say "the stock value rarely changes"

> If you invest in mazda, you know you're gonna be able to sell at any point without much worry.

Well if you don't worry about losing money I guess..

[1] https://roadgenius.com/cars/statistics/sales-by-manufacturer...

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#115
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to be the classic way in which management types destroy technical companies. Same thing happened a decade back in electronics companies in Japan (Sony comes to mind). Technical competence is generally very hard to judge and often even harder replace. It's not surprising that the same management types are salivating at the thought of replacing people with AI.

I kind of wonder if the endgame for all of this is one-product-per-company. The company comes into being to make widget x, and never cares / is able to make another product again. I mean, that's kind of how it all happens anyway. The people who stick through things and make the thing go away anyway. the ip is then acquired.

That seems like the current model in tech, to the point that companies are eventually renamed for their only product (RIM -> BlackBerry, Sun -> JAVA, dotCloud -> Docker), but there are also a few Asian megacorps that have their fingers in seemingly everything, think of Yamaha and Mitsubishi.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about Mazda?

TLDR; Mazda should merge with Nissan while they still can do it on a fire sale. Mazda is a huge outlier in manfacturing because they are small, but have motorsports calibre/history (meaning they have a history of homologating sports cars.) Mazda sells an order of magnitude less cars than even newer companies like BYD. Even less than isuzu. Because of this, they can more tightly control investor expectations, profit/l…

> Mazda sells an order of magnitude less cars than even newer companies like BYD.

In Australia, Mazda has been the 2nd highest selling brand (across all models) for a number of years. Not sure about last 18 months.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have huge doubts that Teslas will retain a "halo premium", except in some very strange circles. Already they're an embarrassing car to own and the financials of that company are rapidly flushing down the toilet, making it a question of how long it will be a going concern (hence all the frantic rushing around for legitimacy in other markets...robots, why not?) They are widely cited as unreliable, poorly built vehicl…

> Already they're an embarrassing car to own I don't know if that's true, but I find it all pretty funny regardless. Five or more years ago, people hated Tesla drivers, either because they represented wealth or that they were seen as progressive 'tree huggers'. Today people seem to hate Tesla drivers because the brand is for right wing nazis. I think both takes are misguided, and I don't know how popular those takes…

I didnt have an opinion of them until I sat in one. I hated the interior. Its very much like silicon valley trying to reinvent things that work. People compare it to an iPhone but its like sitting in the Windows 11 start menu. The entire design language of car interiors built up over decades thrown away for no reason.

Shits me too because I kinda dig the retro aesthetic of the cybertruck. Its just completely destroyed by any truck made by any other company, electric or not. And even if you can mod it to be functional as a truck, you still have to deal with that interior.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#118
post #51
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that has changed drastically recently. Big drops in sales in EU.

And have other EV makers seen more success or have they all had declines?

> And have other EV makers seen more success or have they all had declines?

Others have seen big increases.

> Tesla almost 60% fewer cars in Germany in January than in the year-earlier period... The overall segment of battery-electric vehicles, where Tesla is competing, however, gained popularity in January, with sales up 53.5% at almost 34,500 vehicles across all brands.

> A total of 405 new Teslas were registered in Sweden last month, down 44% from January 2024, while registrations in Norway fell to 689, a decline of 38% over the same period, despite soaring overall demand for cars in the two countries.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-...

I tried to find individual manufacturer numbers but couldn't. I did find this:

> Global sales of fully electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids (PHEV) rose 17.7% year on year to 1.3 million in January, the third consecutive month of slowing growth, the Rho Motion data showed.

> Europe reported sales of 0.25 million, up 21% from the same month of 2024.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/global...

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Irrelevant to whom? Toyota, Honda and Subaru all have lifelong customers and for good reason. The cars often last for 20+ years with minimal upkeep. The current crop of Chinese electric car makers are all trying to fake it until one of them makes it and the money spigot keeping them afloat will eventually get turned off at some point.[0] Good luck keeping that flashy EV running when the company goes bust. [0] https:/…

New car purchasing behaviour follows the law of double jeopardy. ie. Toyota has high repeat purchase rates because it has high market share, not because of loyal customers.

At least until the last 10 years people would try and sell Toyota on safety and reliability. People who wanted to extract every cent out of the cars life would get a toyota because it would legit go the distance without failure. Dealer told me that it doesnt hold true anymore due to electronics. But old corollas are still legendarily reliable first cars for teenagers. And I recall the used market for old hiluxes is beyond belief.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#120
post #5

At this point I feel like a rising stock price after a crisis should be a major red flag for long term corporate survival. Carlos Ghosn was able to "turn Nissan around", but it was at the expense of future product capabilities (in my opinion) [Disclosure I work for GM, this is solely my own opinion] Also, I must say that it is not clear to me that anyone could know what a long term winning play looked like 10-15 year…

This seems to be the classic way in which management types destroy technical companies. Same thing happened a decade back in electronics companies in Japan (Sony comes to mind). Technical competence is generally very hard to judge and often even harder replace. It's not surprising that the same management types are salivating at the thought of replacing people with AI.

Wouldn’t you say this is what the current ruling party of the government is doing to the USA? Seems eerily the same to me.
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