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On DeepSeek and export controls

darioamodei.com

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Re: On DeepSeek and export controls

#111

Post by mardifoufs »

Fernicia wrote: post #74
k1m wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. Chinese companies shouldn't have chips because their government has "committed human rights violations, has behaved aggressively on the world stage". And the US government hasn't?

To say the two are remotely comparable is either insincere or naive. Like I'm not saying the US always acts utterly virtuously, but they aren't running concentration camps and chemically castrating entire ethic groups. They also aren't imprisoning people for speech, which is important when we're discussing who we want controlling AI in the future.

True, providing complete military support, with special deliveries of bombs and ordinance to Israel, knowing full well that it will go towards obliterating a city and killing tens of thousands of civilians is more humane. It's not genocide if an ally is doing it!

Re: On DeepSeek and export controls

#112

Post by rcarmo »

kristjansson wrote: post #105
rcarmo wrote: post #25

I like a lot of what Dario writes, but in this case I just can't follow the reasoning. Everything I've picked up about how DeepSeek did what they did (including going a level lower than CUDA to better take advantage of the limited hardware[1], and the balance of techniques used[2]) points to some very smart Chinese engineers having out-smarted US ones (to put it in terms that matter to US folk, because I'm European a…

To be sure, DeepSeek did great work, and this is a bit aside from TFA. But the PTX thing is a bit of meme? What do we think torch.compile and triton and llvm's nvptx backend are doing under the hood? The warp-specialization thing quoted in [1] cites to a _2014_ paper[2] out of Stanford ... [2]: https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/2555243.2555258

Yeah, well, it's not _just_ PTX. Think about what you would do if you had to work in a resource-constrained system (that's a mindset I closely relate to since I still do C++ for MCUs, and it makes you dig _under_ the libraries to save resources).

Re: On DeepSeek and export controls

#113

Post by _t9ow »

HeatrayEnjoyer wrote: post #90
danielpeach wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you remember when the US lied to everyone about WMDs and then caused the deaths of at least 100k Iraqi civilians?

Or overthrew democracies in South America, leading to the refugee crisis it now refuses to take responsibility for. The entity that is least problematic (of the available options) and should be entrusted is the European Union.

> overthrew democracies in South America

Don't forget Central America and Iran; supporting military dictators in Southeast Asia (Marcos in the Philippines and Suharto in Indonesia); invading Haiti and raiding it of the entirety of its gold reserves, condemning its people to poverty -- one could go on and on.

Re: On DeepSeek and export controls

#114

Post by suraci »

inglor_cz wrote: post #31
suraci wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

otherwise it will become to a multipolar world(or 'bipolar', said the article) that would be horrible, a multipolar world? what a nightmare

Multipolar world is probably going to have multiple wars on the "edges of control", similar to the one now raging in Ukraine. It may also have some positives, too, but situations with several similarly sized powers competing for primacy have historically been pretty bloody. Unlike Apple and Google, the US, China, Russia etc. have military forces at their disposal.

well, from the historical perspective, it's more easy(or equally hard) to achieve a peaceful multipolar world than a eternal unipolar world

i mean, all 'rule-based international order' died in history, the Holy Roman Empire, the First Empire of France, and the ancient Chinese empire died in every 300 years

even there is no China, even the empire doesn't implode, will africans and south americans be willing to mining for the west for all their lives? there will be Sankaras and Castros in every several decades, every hegemony has an end

or, american exceptionalism?

Re: On DeepSeek and export controls

#115

Post by [deleted] »

hellojesus wrote: post #93
breakitmakeit wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Article 1 Section 8 does not enumerate Congress with the power to provide healthcare, so Medicaid should onoy be a state level program. I know removing it harms those at the low end of the income spectrum, and that is a bummer, but I really would prefer Congress ammend the Constitution instead of just passing laws of which they have no authority to pass.

[deleted]

Re: On DeepSeek and export controls

#116

Post by MiiMe19 »

k1m wrote: post #108
MiiMe19 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Do you really think the US is going to come out on top as the "lesser evil" if we start listing all the "bad things" each side has done related to human rights abuses and behaving aggressively on the world stage? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BOBKTmaQ9M

[flagged]

Re: On DeepSeek and export controls

#117

Post by slaw »

rcarmo wrote: post #60
slaw wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe, especially UK, France and Germany degraded so much it is no longer any alternative.

Economically, perhaps. Brexit certainly didn't help Europe as a whole, and German, French and Italian politics have been off-kilter for years, but it's still, by and large, an ethical and civilized place to live in. I will freely grant that Euro money goes to completely obsolete heavy industries and luxury items rather than technology innovation (and blame all politicians for missing out on technology), but there are…

UK, German and French cities are no longer civilized places to live in.

Re: On DeepSeek and export controls

#118

Post by MiiMe19 »

krapp wrote: post #110
MiiMe19 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do not have a right to other people's work. I should not be forced to give you food because you are too lazy to do it yourself. If you do not work, you do not eat, just like Jamestown.

Yes, all the poor are simply lazy, and you yourself have never ever benefited from the collective labor of society.

You do not deserve to eat just by existing (unless you are disabled or medically cannot work). Saying this is true implies that you have a right to other people's labor, which you do not.

Re: On DeepSeek and export controls

#119

Post by breakitmakeit »

hellojesus wrote: post #93
breakitmakeit wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Article 1 Section 8 does not enumerate Congress with the power to provide healthcare, so Medicaid should onoy be a state level program. I know removing it harms those at the low end of the income spectrum, and that is a bummer, but I really would prefer Congress ammend the Constitution instead of just passing laws of which they have no authority to pass.

And thus is shown that legal reasoning is not equivalent to moral reasoning

Re: On DeepSeek and export controls

#120

Post by CuriouslyC »

MiiMe19 wrote: post #107
CuriouslyC wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just wait. By year 2 of Trump 2.0, China is going to be the global good guy that Europe and Latin America make their new best friend.

If Europe and Latin America want to buddy up with the concentration camp gang, I really don't care. We do not need fascists and communists as our partners.

Funny you mention fascists. As for China being a concentration camp gang, that's not going to matter when their former big brother/ally is just relentlessly bullying them and trying to extract all sorts of concessions under duress, and the alternative has demonstrated to be a reliable ally and partner.
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