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FTC orders 'gun detection' tech maker Evolv to stop overstating effectiveness

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111–120 of 143 posts

Re: FTC orders 'gun detection' tech maker Evolv to stop overstating effectiveness

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Security checkpoints are the primary point of delay for getting into venues, and places that have rolled these out process people through about 95% faster. It's a huge difference. I assume expediting peak crowd throughput at low labor cost is the primary, if not entire, value of the device. I hate that it's being marketed dishonestly but I also assume most concert venue buyers know (or suspect) it probably doesn't…

> get more bodies per minute into the venue at lower cost while appearing to conduct security checks sufficiently 'real' enough to act as a deterrent Or they just need to convince most of their customers it will be safe to attend, while covering their ass by following "best practices" if something slips through, people get hurt and they get sued.

> convince most of their customers it will be safe to attend

Apparently, you've never met my Aunt Sue. She has a graduate degree in innumeracy with a minor in illiteracy and a specialization in worrying about whatever the media tells her to worry about. However, she always votes.

More seriously, it's not cost-effective to "convince most customers it will be safe enough to attend." The game theory around fallacious public perception makes it a losing proposition for a politician or company to ever appear to reduce security requirements because as soon as "rare bad thing happens", they will be blamed - even though their reduction in pointless measures had no bearing on it.

Most independent experts agree that securing cockpit doors in 2002 made subjecting every passenger to the TSA's increased security measures unnecessary and, objectively, a very poor ROI in both cost and disruption. However, the TSA will never, ever go away - even though it could and should. Not only is reducing security politically costly, the TSA is now a multi-billion dollar federal bureaucracy, paying hundreds of vendors with lobbyists and employing tens of thousands of unionized workers spread across the most populous congressional districts. Yes, this is frustrating.

Re: FTC orders 'gun detection' tech maker Evolv to stop overstating effectiveness

#112
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there? In most US states, the concept of premises liability seems to be derived entirely from case law, not statute. Some states appear to have statutes limiting its scope, such as https://colorado.public.law/statutes/crs_13-21-115 Edit: to be clear, I don't think there's anything actually stopping someone from attempting to sue a bar or grocery store over a crime committed there, but it usually doesn't happen and…

So what? It's not like common law has less effect. "Body of law" is understood by lawyers to include both common and statutory law.

I will concede the technical point: there is a body of law that sometimes expects business owners to prevent crimes and sometimes doesn't, with a whole lot of ambiguity about exactly what any given owner is actually expected to do. I think that ambiguity should be reduced by putting criminal acts out of scope.

Re: FTC orders 'gun detection' tech maker Evolv to stop overstating effectiveness

#113
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is, and has long been illegal to make false statements of fact in marketing materials. Puffery , on the other hand is allowed. That usually entails non-falsifiable statements like "Evolv is the best way to detect guns". "Best" doesn't really mean anything because there are a bunch of tradeoffs that go into designing a security screening system.

Right. "The world's best cookie". I think the idea is that no reasonable person would understand that statement to mean that literally, of all the cookies in the world, this one right here is the best.

At least equally important to whether a reasonable person would take it literally is that there's no way to prove it isn't. If I call something the best cookie, the closest thing that has to a concrete meaning is "I like it better than any other cookie".

Re: FTC orders 'gun detection' tech maker Evolv to stop overstating effectiveness

#114
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there? In most US states, the concept of premises liability seems to be derived entirely from case law, not statute. Some states appear to have statutes limiting its scope, such as https://colorado.public.law/statutes/crs_13-21-115 Edit: to be clear, I don't think there's anything actually stopping someone from attempting to sue a bar or grocery store over a crime committed there, but it usually doesn't happen and…

So what? It's not like common law has less effect. "Body of law" is understood by lawyers to include both common and statutory law.

The point is that it can easily be overridden with statute

"business owners meeting definition X are only liable in conditions Y"

Re: FTC orders 'gun detection' tech maker Evolv to stop overstating effectiveness

#116
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup agree 100% with the first statement. I do not agree with the second at all. Law Enforcement are both obligated and expected to put their own life at risk protecting the public. That said they are also expected to show up for work tomorrow! It’s a sad day when they don’t.

Ok, but in the US they are not obligated to do that. It's been put forth to the Supreme Court at least once. A cop can be at the scene of you getting actively murdered and do nothing about it, and legally the cop is ok. Morally, you could definitely argue they're not okay.

> Supreme Court

1981 Warren v. District of Columbia

2005 Castle Rock v. Gonzales

Re: FTC orders 'gun detection' tech maker Evolv to stop overstating effectiveness

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The TSA's own security tests clearly show a significant percentage of guns, knives and explosives regularly get through. This is further confirmed by the number of travelers who, after arriving, discover the handgun they accidentally left in some pouch in their suitcase that was never detected. > There doesn't seem to be the equivalent of Consumer Reports or Underwriters Labs for scanners. My guess is that the number…

I unknowingly transported ammo both to and from Mexico. I used an old backpack that I had previously used as a range bag from years ago. I ended up finding several 223 rounds in Mexico, then when I got back, even more 22lr.

Others have not been so lucky

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/kyle-busch...

Re: FTC orders 'gun detection' tech maker Evolv to stop overstating effectiveness

#118
post #83

Interesting how a guy whose entire administration is being investigated and indicted by the FBI ran almost entirely on a ‘law and order’ platform, with this pilot being one of the staples.

The "investigated and indicted by the FBI" that lead to nothing for the "law and order" candidate? Interesting that the "lawfair" candidate would have had the complete opposite outcome, had the laws been equally enforced.

You're confusing Eric Adams with Donald Trump.

Re: FTC orders 'gun detection' tech maker Evolv to stop overstating effectiveness

#119
post #77
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Looks like maybe the stats were added later in an edit, as I didn't see them. Comparing stats from separate countries is terrible . This has no control for any of the other possible factors associated. Those aren't studies, but just random stats. I at least offered a study. I didn't offer any "flak", but a starting point for you with a source.

>Comparing stats from separate countries is terrible. This has no control for any of the other possible factors associated. Those aren't studies, but just random stats. I at least offered a study.

Comparing between countries is "terrible" because "there's no control for any of the other possible factors associated", but the study you offered which also seemingly has no controls is fine... because "starting point"?

Re: FTC orders 'gun detection' tech maker Evolv to stop overstating effectiveness

#120
post #35

I mean, the company has never really said how their systems worked. It's basically left the users/scanned with the impression that it's magic. It seems to me that it's basically some of 3D metal detection paired with cameras. It would be cool to understand how they make it work, but I guess it's a trade secret. They haven't readily put up numbers about false positive rates, and even less data about false negatives. I…

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