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Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

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Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#111

Post by abrenuntio »

emmelaich wrote: post #82
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thing is, Christianity is (should be? idk) based on the teachings of Jesus which separated from Judaism; on prayer and worship, the New Testament has teachings like: > Matthew 6:5-14 > 5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go in…

FWIW, this has changed a lot. Catholic churches built in the last 50 years are far more austere than those built earlier.

It's a catastrophe, not just esthetically but spiritually as well. It has nothing to do with austerity or wealth. Some of the churches no longer seek to express holiness ("having been set aside for God") and support the numinous and eternal nature of the divine liturgy that takes place in them.

One of the most breathtaking pictures I've ever seen in this regard is of Mass in a German church completely destroyed during WW2.

https://www.churchpop.com/content/images/size/w1200/wordpres...

"Stat crux dum volvitur orbis"...

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#112

Post by giraffe_lady »

JackFr wrote: post #103
kibwen wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even today plenty of Christian sects refuse to recognize the council of Nicaea's interpretation of the trinity, including the Mormons and the Jehovah's witnesses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism (Whether or not any of these flirt with polytheism is up for debate.) Meanwhile, the Catholic church's own profusion of saints whom you are supposed to beseech for specific blessings is dangerously close to a…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filioque - to this day the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church disagree on whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, or from the Father and the Son.

Yeah but most lay people from either branch couldn't tell you the practical consequences of this. It's widely known & considered important because it's a remaining theological justification for the schism, not the other way around.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#113

Post by ecshafer »

foobarian wrote: post #62
bjackman wrote: post #28

I find it pretty cool how the spread of Christianity can be tracked so finely that a 50 update in earliest arrival time is exciting! I started listening to a podcast called "the history of the early church" to learn a bit more about that but unfortunately I think the target audience was Christians interested in theology rather than nerds interested in history. Recommendations for books etc are welcome!

Speaking of history podcasts, I've gone through Mike Duncan's Rome and Revolutions, the Fall of Civilizations, Dan Carlin's Hardcore Histories... any suggestions for more like this? I noticed there is a Byzantium history series that seemed interesting.

Assuming you want more Long form, narrative style historical podcasts. History of the Germans, The French History Podcast, and The History of England are all very good in depth podcasts. I also enjoy the History of The Crusades, which is good, narrative and similar to Revolutions following various crusades.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#114

Post by marky1991 »

NemoNobody wrote: post #75
christopher8827 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think that's in line with Jesus' teachings of humility and helping the poor etc, especially not given how much money goes and went around in the church. Hmm, but in the Exodus, the ark of the covenant was glided in gold with cherubs on the four corners. Same with the Jewish Temple, it was probably decked out in marble. Unlike Protestants, Catholicism have arts, choral music and statues and architecture not…

Exodus was as far from Christ as we are. The Old Testament can't be used to counter Jesus - Jesus is the counter to the Old Testament. He is the reason it's "Old" - humility, loving all without conditions, forgivenes, turning the other cheek - The Greatest Commandment, none of them are ignored or "misinterpreted" in any justified way, even if that way is quoting scripture from Exodus.

That's a very unusual context for me, in my tradition (reformed Presbyterian) we definitely don't view things that we way in general, the God of the old testament is the God of the new and Jesus didn't wholesale make the old testament invalid, only the parts of the law that he had already satisfied. (Eg no need for more animal sacrifices, we've already sacrificed enough via Jesus) (Notably, the moral law and parts of the ceremonial law are still valid)

It is interesting to think about why it's ok to differ from the old temple. Granted of course some of it is cultural differences, we're not the same people and it's 1000s of years later, and perhaps it was different because we're not the theocratic state of ancient Israel.

But something for me to think about why this component is no longer needed (my church is very classic boring protestant architecture)

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#115

Post by dddddaviddddd »

bjackman wrote: post #28

I find it pretty cool how the spread of Christianity can be tracked so finely that a 50 update in earliest arrival time is exciting! I started listening to a podcast called "the history of the early church" to learn a bit more about that but unfortunately I think the target audience was Christians interested in theology rather than nerds interested in history. Recommendations for books etc are welcome!

The “Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean” podcast is excellent. It’s mostly cut-up university lectures by the author, who teaches at York University in Toronto. https://www.philipharland.com/Blog/religions-of-the-ancient-...

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#116

Post by srcreigh »

kamikazeturtles wrote: post #61
Hilift wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the more interesting developments occurred after the fall of the western Roman empire. The eastern empire (Constantinople) had frequent arguments and disputes with the west over nearly everything, including Christianity. The eastern Orthodox church refers to itself as the "Catholic Church" in internal documents. After the west fell in 476, they continued to present themselves as "the" Catholic church, which w…

Did the fact that Christians from Western Europe looted Constantinople in 1200 play a role in the Eastern Roman Empire's decision to stop identifying themselves as part of the Catholic Church, or were there already deep theological and political divides?

The pope who sent the schism message delegation died before it reached Constantinople. And the patriarch of Constantinople at the time, also died before his reply made it back to Rome.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#117

Post by throw0101b »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #37
FearNotDaniel wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as a participant in a number of somewhat "modern" Christian traditions, I think one factor is that we have changed quite a lot and then some strands of the faith have decided to go back into the past and seek what we lost from the early days. One example being certain rock'n'roll churches where people stick their hands up in the air while singing and praying: I heard one pastor defend this as being "this is…

Thing is, Christianity is (should be? idk) based on the teachings of Jesus which separated from Judaism; on prayer and worship, the New Testament has teachings like: > Matthew 6:5-14 > 5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go in…

> Then there's Catholics where opulence and grandeur is apparent […]

It is not "opulence and grandeur" that are on display, but beauty, or Beauty:

* https://ndpr.nd.edu/reviews/aquinas-on-beauty/

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendentals

See also "Beauty, Truth, and Goodness":

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7RSQpDnYUY

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#118

Post by paganel »

gostsamo wrote: post #74
kamikazeturtles wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did the fact that Christians from Western Europe looted Constantinople in 1200 play a role in the Eastern Roman Empire's decision to stop identifying themselves as part of the Catholic Church, or were there already deep theological and political divides?

The schism was in 1053

1054, in fact, but the 1204 ransacking of Constantinople certainly didn't help with how the "Franks" (because that's how the Catholics were mostly called) were seen by the Christian-Orthodox (if it matters I'm a Christian-Orthodox myself).

I was reading a travelogue written by a Russian monk (? not sure, either a monk or a wealthy boyar predisposed to the Holy stuff) who was visiting Constantinople sometimes in the early 1300s, so a century after the whole tragedy, and he was still describing how destroyed the city looked because of the Franks and what big of a tragedy that was.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#119

Post by paxcoder »

Hilift wrote: post #56
bjackman wrote: post #28

I find it pretty cool how the spread of Christianity can be tracked so finely that a 50 update in earliest arrival time is exciting! I started listening to a podcast called "the history of the early church" to learn a bit more about that but unfortunately I think the target audience was Christians interested in theology rather than nerds interested in history. Recommendations for books etc are welcome!

I think the more interesting developments occurred after the fall of the western Roman empire. The eastern empire (Constantinople) had frequent arguments and disputes with the west over nearly everything, including Christianity. The eastern Orthodox church refers to itself as the "Catholic Church" in internal documents. After the west fell in 476, they continued to present themselves as "the" Catholic church, which w…

[dead]

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#120

Post by oldmanhorton »

bjackman wrote: post #28

I find it pretty cool how the spread of Christianity can be tracked so finely that a 50 update in earliest arrival time is exciting! I started listening to a podcast called "the history of the early church" to learn a bit more about that but unfortunately I think the target audience was Christians interested in theology rather than nerds interested in history. Recommendations for books etc are welcome!

Someone already said The Rest is History, but one of the presenters of that podcast Tom Holland (not the actor) has also written extensively about the history of the catholic church in Millennium and Dominion. Highly recommended.
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