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"Nvidia is so far ahead that all the 4090s are nerfed to half speed"

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Re: "Nvidia is so far ahead that all the 4090s are nerfed to half speed"

#111

Post by rasz »

ryao wrote: post #17
acdha wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other than the huge amount of enterprise software which was only supported on Intel, most of the high-end server business below the mainframe level after the mid-90s, and the huge install base of x86 software keeping everyone but AMD out? Even their own Itanium crashed and burned on x86 compatibility.

Then there were software libraries and the Intel C/C++ Compiler that favored Intel. They would place optimized code paths that only ran on Intel hardware in third party software. Intel has stopped doing that in recent years as far as I know (the MKL has Zen specific code paths), but that is a fairly recent change (maybe the past 5 years). There were also ISA extensions. Even if Intel had trouble competing on existing…

>Intel C/C++ Compiler that favored Intel

Thats where Nvidia learned to "optimize" Cuda software path. Single threaded x87 FPU on SSE2 capable CPUs.

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2010/07/did-nvidia-cripple-it...

https://www.realworldtech.com/physx87/3/ "For Nvidia, decreasing the baseline CPU performance by using x87 instructions and a single thread makes GPUs look better."

They doubled down that approach with 'GameWorks' crippling performance on non Nvidia GPUs, Nvidia paid studios for including GameWorks in their games.

Re: "Nvidia is so far ahead that all the 4090s are nerfed to half speed"

#112

Post by YetAnotherNick »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #110
YetAnotherNick wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the last part? Pytorch uses drivers, and drivers exists for Google's TPU and Apple's M1 GPU as well and both works pretty well. I have tested both and it reaches similar MFU as Nvidia.

Are M1 GPUs available for data center deployment at scale? Are Google TPUs available outside of Google? Can Amazon or Microsoft or other third parties deploy them? Anyone that wants off the shelf parts at scale is going to turn to Nvidia.

That's the point I am making. And the reason Amazon or Microsoft can't deploy them is the hardware, not CUDA.

Re: "Nvidia is so far ahead that all the 4090s are nerfed to half speed"

#113

Post by ramon156 »

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #94
cosmic_cheese wrote: post #45

Between EVGA getting out of the Nvidia card business, Nvidia continuing to be problematic under Linux (even if that’s improving), all the nonsense with the new power connector, and the company’s general sliminess, I’m increasingly leaning towards an AMD (or potentially Intel) card for my next tower upgrade. AMD and Intel might only be competing in the entry-to-midrange market sector but my needs aren’t likely to exce…

AMD has inexplicably decided not to invest in software. Just like car manufacturers don't realize that a shitty infotainment system can keep people from buying the $100k car, AMD doesn't seem to realize that people aren't buying a GPU for ML if their ML framework doesn't run on it... And this goes down to consumer drivers too. I've sworn to myself that I'm not buying AMD for my next laptop, after endless instability…

How long ago was this? I bought an AMD laptop this year and it's been great with both windows and Linux. I can't say the same for my Nvidia pc ...

Re: "Nvidia is so far ahead that all the 4090s are nerfed to half speed"

#114

Post by [deleted] »

sdwr wrote: post #24
kijin wrote: post #4

Binning and market segmentation are not mutually exclusive. Of course they're going to put their best-performing chips in the most expensive segment.

The difference is whether chips with no defects get artificially binned. In a competitive market, if you have a surplus of top-tier chips, you lower prices and make a little more $$ selling more power. With a monopoly (customers are still yours next upgrade cycle), giving customers more power now sabotages your future revenue.

[deleted]

Re: "Nvidia is so far ahead that all the 4090s are nerfed to half speed"

#115

Post by guerrilla »

Kirby64 wrote: post #109
guerrilla wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can probably do it, but it would require millions of dollars in FIB and SEM equipment and likely would destroy the chip for any useful purpose. The price tag and size of these things are what I'm talking about. SOME day it will get much cheaper and smaller. A 4090 will be useless at that point, but I still play with 8086s and vacuum tubes, so... No point in betting though. We'll both be dead by then.

I’d still take the bet. FIB and SEM stuff is highly specialized and miniaturizing it to be obtainable by a garage user seems unlikely even in the distant future. Either way, you still couldn’t take a 4090 and make it functional as a 6000 series. You’d destroy it in the process if it was even possible at all.

Nah, it's going to become democratized. It's already started.

There's been a few different stories like this lately:

https://interestingengineering.com/videos/guy-builds-integra...

People said the same thing you're saying now about computers. You're just being silly and forgetting history.

Re: "Nvidia is so far ahead that all the 4090s are nerfed to half speed"

#116

Post by brirec »

rasz wrote: post #106
KennyBlanken wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Pentium math bug, Puma cablemodems, their shitty cellular modems that are far worse than Qualcomm's, gigabit chipset issues, 2.5GB chipset issues, and now the 13th/14th gen CPUs that destroy themselves. And we just gave them billions in tax dollars. Failing upwards...

Atom C2000 waves from behind all this crowd!

I still have five C2758 nodes running just fine, though!

Re: "Nvidia is so far ahead that all the 4090s are nerfed to half speed"

#117

Post by Wytwwww »

Xymist wrote: post #36
itsthecourier wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they have to do that to server different segments. how would you price a 4090 that can be used for crypto, gaming, ai, cad, video editing if you were to discover that is cheaper to create the same chips for all of them, but the segments are really different, 90% coming from datacenter and 10% from gaming we're lucky they still do gaming by limiting the datacenter chips it's like getting a ferrari speed limited for us…

They just shouldn't do that. If they can afford to sell the Ferrari for $20k, they should do so. To everyone who wants one, for whatever reason.

So company profit margins should be capped? At what level and how would that work exactly?

What about all other stuff? i.e. maybe you or somebody else can "afford" to sell their labour at 10-80% of what they are paid?

Re: "Nvidia is so far ahead that all the 4090s are nerfed to half speed"

#118

Post by thatfrenchguy »

creato wrote: post #52

NVIDIA is obviously not above market segmentation via dubious means (see: driver limitations for consumer GPUs), but I think binning due to silicon defects is a more likely explanation in this case. Some 4090s have this extra fp16 -> fp32 ALU disabled because it's defective on that chip. Other 4090s have it disabled because it failed as an Ada 6000 for some other reason, but NVIDIA didn't want to make a 4095 SKU to s…

This starts as binning and ends up at down binning :)

Re: "Nvidia is so far ahead that all the 4090s are nerfed to half speed"

#120

Post by CharlieDigital »

YetAnotherNick wrote: post #112
CharlieDigital wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are M1 GPUs available for data center deployment at scale? Are Google TPUs available outside of Google? Can Amazon or Microsoft or other third parties deploy them? Anyone that wants off the shelf parts at scale is going to turn to Nvidia.

That's the point I am making. And the reason Amazon or Microsoft can't deploy them is the hardware, not CUDA.

Yeah, and if you're using Nvidia, you're using CUDA.
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