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Tip pressure might work in the moment, but customers are less likely to return

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Re: Tip pressure might work in the moment, but customers are less likely to return

#111

Post by keernan »

xscott wrote: post #6

The other one I'm seeing lately is a semi-stealth "service charge" on the bill. Something like 18% to 20% added to the bill without really standing out. This used to be something they'd do for "larger parties", but now I'm seeing it even when I'm eating solo. This makes for an uncomfortable situation where I now have to ask the waiter or bartender if they receive this as a tip. Then I need to decide if I want to tip…

>The other one I'm seeing lately is a semi-stealth "service charge" on the bill.

I've yet to come across it. But when I do, I will refuse to pay it and I will also refuse to leave any tip. And I will never return.

Re: Tip pressure might work in the moment, but customers are less likely to return

#112

Post by shepherdjerred »

xscott wrote: post #6

The other one I'm seeing lately is a semi-stealth "service charge" on the bill. Something like 18% to 20% added to the bill without really standing out. This used to be something they'd do for "larger parties", but now I'm seeing it even when I'm eating solo. This makes for an uncomfortable situation where I now have to ask the waiter or bartender if they receive this as a tip. Then I need to decide if I want to tip…

The strangest thing I've seen was a mandatory ~5-10% charge that explicitly wasn't a tip and wouldn't go directly to workers, but instead went to the owners so that they could "provide sustainable wages to workers"

I'm not against paying reasonable wages, but that should definitely be, you know, part of the actual menu price.

Re: Tip pressure might work in the moment, but customers are less likely to return

#113

Post by mckn1ght »

bdangubic wrote: post #106
mckn1ght wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 3% is the cost of doing business. Yes, it's a cost you pay at some places to do business with them using your credit card.

didn’t realize I had to spell it out like this - yes, exactly. thanks

I don’t think you understand. Per your other comment:

> it is cost of doing business and you can’t pass that shit off to customers

What do you think prices are? They are the costs to the business plus some profit margin. Visa is passing their costs down to their customers too.

Businesses are completely within their right to pass the CC charges on to customers. It becomes the customers’ cost of doing business with their preferred method of payment.

Re: Tip pressure might work in the moment, but customers are less likely to return

#114

Post by esperent »

muzika wrote: post #2

Let’s have restaurants raise prices to cover employee salaries, and make it illegal for them to ask for tips. Customers who want to tip need to do so without solicitation. (Not sure how this would work with credit card terminals though).

As the owner of a bakery/cafe - thankfully in a country where tipping isn't normal - changing prices to cover costs isn't a simple thing to do, unfortunately. Customers are extremely sensitive to price changes, and expect certain price points. We have 7% inflation, and our suppliers have no problem raising their prices to reflect that. But we can't match them easily. 50k and 100k VND are prices that customers orient around here. In the US the equivalent might be $10 and $20, where one is cheap for a meal, the other is expensive.

Notice that those are just round numbers rather than specific values. What happens when inflation means that $10 is no longer sustainable for a meal? You can either increase the price and weather all of your regulars complaining, and new customers viewing you as an expensive location. Or, you can cut costs.

The same applies if you have a sudden new expense. Say, taxes go up. Or you decide to stop requesting tips and start paying staff a living wage (something I'm strongly in favor of). Then you'll need to increase all prices by 30%. Do you think your customers will be happy? No way! And even those customers who do support and agree with you, subconsciously they'll still be comparing you to other places that haven't done this and your place will be comparatively expensive and they'll come less often. Yes, even if they end up paying less after factoring in tips. Customers (in general) are not rational that way.

Then the only option is legislation so that everywhere changes at once. And good luck with that!

Re: Tip pressure might work in the moment, but customers are less likely to return

#115

Post by rabuse »

dataflow wrote: post #60
rabuse wrote: post #4

I'll never tip on those things if it's not your typical tipped position, like a bartender, waitress, etc. Pay your employees.

What do you do for coffee shops? Or restaurants that ask for payment & tip first, then bring you your food, and don't do anything else?

I don't go to any of those personally

Re: Tip pressure might work in the moment, but customers are less likely to return

#117

Post by dredmorbius »

dismalaf wrote: post #3

Tipping is a tough problem: if you pay customer facing employees more, you'll need to raise prices. If your competitors still have a tipping expectation, their menu prices will be lower. And let's be real, most customers aren't savvy enough to think about that ahead of time, which is why most restaurants that have attempting no-tipping systems in North America have failed (or reverted back to accepting tips). There's…

Prisoner's dilemma.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma>

Re: Tip pressure might work in the moment, but customers are less likely to return

#118

Post by valval »

esperent wrote: post #114
muzika wrote: post #2

Let’s have restaurants raise prices to cover employee salaries, and make it illegal for them to ask for tips. Customers who want to tip need to do so without solicitation. (Not sure how this would work with credit card terminals though).

As the owner of a bakery/cafe - thankfully in a country where tipping isn't normal - changing prices to cover costs isn't a simple thing to do, unfortunately. Customers are extremely sensitive to price changes, and expect certain price points. We have 7% inflation, and our suppliers have no problem raising their prices to reflect that. But we can't match them easily. 50k and 100k VND are prices that customers orient…

You either raise prices, cut costs, or go out of business. All are valid options.

Re: Tip pressure might work in the moment, but customers are less likely to return

#119

Post by dredmorbius »

To generalise the observation: I've definitely shifted my own behaviour where I find coercive, obnoxious, or toxic patterns.

"Loyalty coupons" where the number of items bought to receive one free escalated on subsequent purchase? Stopped shopping at that store. I'm not someone's Skinner Box experiment.

Websites with increasingly user-hostile experiences (or moderator-hostile), o hai reddit and googs, yeah, eff that noise.

Manufacturers selling shoddy products and failing to support them? Bad reviews and shop elsewhere (though that's often quite difficult).

As the poet notes, "Rage, rage against the dying of the light."

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46569/do-not-go-gentl...>

(Dylan Thomas, whoever he was: https://genius.com/Simon-and-garfunkel-a-simple-desultory-ph...>.)

I suspect metrics show benefits amongst those who tolerate such abuse. I'm curious how well exits are measured and assessed.

A.O. Hirshcman, Exit, Voice, and Loyalty: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exit%2C_Voice%2C_and_Loyalty>.

Re: Tip pressure might work in the moment, but customers are less likely to return

#120

Post by StanislavPetrov »

jghn wrote: post #36
StanislavPetrov wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The other reason being it involves a degree of social pressure and shame, if one doesn’t tip enough. It's standard to tip 15% for decent service in a restaurant(sans win). You are of course free to tip more for good service or less for crappy service, but unless your experience is truly exceptional (in either a good or bad way) you can never go wrong with 15%. This is standard any US restaurant where you sit down an…

> It's standard to tip 15% for decent service in a restaurant This is not true, and hasn't been for some time [1] [1] https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Average-reported-tip-rat...

The last metric in this 2017 study, before the pandemic, showed tipping was between 18% and 19% in, "surveys (that) are aimed at diners who patronize full-service midscale and upscale restaurants". It also shows a downward trend in the last few data points. All things considered, including diners who patronize "downscale" full-service restaurants (like diners), and given the many decades-long standard of 15% tips, it seems to me a safe standard to continue to use. Certainly no foreign visitor will ever face vitriol for tipping 15%.
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