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Performance improvement plans are on the rise

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Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#111

Post by therealdrag0 »

scruple wrote: post #65
chrisdhoover wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think .20 is an underestimate. Under performers are likely in the .25 to .35 percent range. It is hard to find the right people and so there is an acceptance of good enough. The PIPs start with the most egregious or if cash flow is tight. An owner I worked for called it trimming the dead wood. From the business side it is best to get rid of some people. Its best for the remaining people too.

> Its best for the remaining people too. It sure doesn't feel that way to me, as someone who has seen lower-performing (I'd hesitate to label them under-performing, these people simply never should've been hired into the role they were put into in the first place, but those are anecdotes for another time) be PIPed and ultimately let go, because all it means is my own workload is going to go from fucked to even-more-f…

That’s a bad management issue. Your workloads shouldn’t be drastically impacted by how many coworkers you have. If you lose a coworkers it’s your managers job to rebalance the roadmap or negotiate with other other managers and their manager to get a up to speed backfill.

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#112

Post by therealdrag0 »

sunshowers wrote: post #108
therealdrag0 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s the alternative? Give them a rainbow sticker? It’s business among adults, performance matters. If you can’t meet expectations then it’s not a good fit. That’s part of life.

The alternative is to very seriously ask if the primary reason for underperformance lies with management rather than the individual. We are a social species and a large part of our behavior is are determined by our social environment. The PIP process does not incorporate this very basic fact about us.

Any serious organization will take that into account for the managers own performance. Their job is people management, and so losing an employee is potentially a strike against them and they need to be able to justify the firing was not their own failure but the employees inability to perform, which is part of the process. You can also get some signal about this on how other employees are performing, if every employee’s under performing then obviously it’s a cultural management organization issue, but no organization can be all things to all people often there will just be bad fits and people need to be able to move on.

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#113

Post by BeetleB »

deskr wrote: post #21
kareiva wrote: post #5

There is nothing to hate here. I have given numerous PIP's as a manager and only actually fired once. The purpose of a PIP is to improve, not to fire a person.

How on earth can you be a good manager and not realize that saying "your performance is shit, we're going to fire you unless you take this course and we deem you've passed" is totally and utterly soul destroying to a person?

> is totally and utterly soul destroying to a person?

To some, it is, and to others, it isn't.

I wonder: Is your question a byproduct of some type of educational system which had a lot of grade inflation and people get passed on to the next year no matter how poor their progress?

In my school/high school, if you got an F in one subject, you'd be held back for the whole year. In my university, they didn't grade on a curve, and had clearly delineated thresholds for A, B, C, etc. The engineering department worked hard to ensure only competent people could get an A or B (you didn't need to be brilliant - merely competent).

By the time you get a job, you should be able to handle feedback along the lines of "You're performance is not good enough for this job". With good management, this isn't a shock, and you should have gotten messaging about performance for quite a while prior to being handed a PIP. Not all management is good, though.

It should not be an identity crisis. No one is good enough for any job, and for any team. You should not go on in life thinking you'll not fail. You won't grow much that way.

I've seen management at times give the employee a ton of leeway. A friend of mine was in a SW team, and he decided he didn't like coding. The manager worked with him to give him an alternate role that was mostly related to customer support. When they'd come with a bug report or query, he'd study the (large) code base and help them if they were doing something wrong, or file a proper bug report with the team.

He still sucked (and knew it). He started working reduced hours (with the manager's approval) to handle the stress.

I kept telling him to go find another job if this one doesn't suit him. He had other skills - he'd done HW work professionally at the same company prior to switching to SW.

This went on for two years before they finally put him on a PIP and fired him. He had a grace period of two years to find another job, but didn't.

The real problem is the unfair PIP - where they want to fire you for reasons other than your performance. It begins with escalating demands that you cannot fulfill, and they use that as a pretext to put you on a PIP.

Anti-disclaimer: I've been on a (very unfair) PIP and was practically fired. Everyone I know at the company who's been on a PIP was fired. So when I say all of the above, trust me, I know the dark side of PIPs. I think they are primarily a tool to get rid of person and the manager is usually not honestly trying to redeem the person.

But even in those cases, it shouldn't be even close to "soul destroying". It's simply the equivalent of getting dumped by a boy/girl friend. Sucks, but it's expected. You move on.

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#114

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

BeetleB wrote: post #104
jghn wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has been in that situation, it's better than "your performance is shit, you're fired". In my case a large part of the problem was that I was not picking up on what should have been obvious cues. This provided a needed wake up call, and prompted me to improve.

> that I was not picking up on what should have been obvious cues. Performance feedback should not come in the form of cues. If it does, it is poor management.

"To stay off the P-I-P you must answer me these riddles three."

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#115

Post by sunshowers »

therealdrag0 wrote: post #112
sunshowers wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative is to very seriously ask if the primary reason for underperformance lies with management rather than the individual. We are a social species and a large part of our behavior is are determined by our social environment. The PIP process does not incorporate this very basic fact about us.

Any serious organization will take that into account for the managers own performance. Their job is people management, and so losing an employee is potentially a strike against them and they need to be able to justify the firing was not their own failure but the employees inability to perform, which is part of the process. You can also get some signal about this on how other employees are performing, if every employe…

Ah, well, I guess in that case most organizations are quite unserious.

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#116

Post by charlie0 »

FireBeyond wrote: post #47
jghn wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I too was put on a PIP early in my career, and worked my way out of it. It was fine. That said, I agree with the general sentiment that much more often than not the employer is not acting in good faith. Over the decades I've seen way too many colleagues get put on a PIP, I tell them to work hard because it can get better, and then they get let go anyways. Not sure what I'd do today if it happened to me. Probably a bi…

Worked as a PM at a well known tech company, great relationship with my director. He leaves, new director comes in and within three months I'm on a PIP. I'm given a list of work products to create for a new offering that has been discussed, which on the face of it are entirely reasonable, and the standard 30 days. 100% ghosted by my Director. Weekly 1:1s? He no-shows 2 of them. Near zero input. In "fairness", I knew…

Were you able to collect unemployment?

My understanding is the PIPs are to provide proof of "low performance" and that "low performance" can be used as an excuse for the company to not pay out unemployment insurance.

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#117

Post by charlie0 »

makk wrote: post #91
throwawygg wrote: post #89

Throwaway manager here. I tried to keep a personality hire out of a PIP. It was a huge mistake. Turns out when all other options are exhausted, a PIP can be a form of respect. In the hands of the right manager, an underperformer gets one last clear chance to show they can do the job. If they succeed, some the ugly baggage gets put behind them. And if they can't succeed, then the PIP sends a message that they are unsu…

An even better token of respect is to just can the person and give them a respectable severance package, so they have months (plural) to find their next thing.

Honest question, if someone is performing horribly, why do they deserve a severance package? Isn't that was unemployment insurance is for?

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#118

Post by jghn »

_DeadFred_ wrote: post #100
jghn wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has been in that situation, it's better than "your performance is shit, you're fired". In my case a large part of the problem was that I was not picking up on what should have been obvious cues. This provided a needed wake up call, and prompted me to improve.

So poor management. A manager's job is to provide their reports the tools they need to do their job, and key to that is not 'obvious cues' but explicitly stated expectations. Basically the manager didn't manage and substituted a PIP for what they should have been doing all along.

I get what you're saying. But as the person directly involved, and as someone who has managed people over the years since, believe me when I say that the fault was my own.

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#119

Post by tetromino_ »

sunshowers wrote: post #92
stavros wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like this conversation is "bad PIPs are bad!" "but good PIPs are good" "no, bad!". Sometimes, you can tell someone "listen, nothing else worked, and we tried for a while, so this is the last resort". Do you think it's better to fire people outright than to give them one last chance?

I think most of the time, so-called underperformance is caused by the environment, not the individual. If a company cares about bringing the best out of individuals it would fix the environment. (There are certainly some individuals that end up being a negative to the team, disrupting more than contributing, and a small minority of PIPs are justified in that sense. But most PIPs I've seen are handed out to hardworkin…

I have had periods in my career when I performed poorly, and in virtually all cases the cause had nothing whatsoever to do with the job environment or management. (The real causes included depression and poor coping mechanisms for it, a toxic relationship, and the birth of a child.)

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#120

Post by marcusb »

charlie0 wrote: post #117
makk wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An even better token of respect is to just can the person and give them a respectable severance package, so they have months (plural) to find their next thing.

Honest question, if someone is performing horribly, why do they deserve a severance package? Isn't that was unemployment insurance is for?

1. They might be a good worker, but a bad fit for their role. That’s as much on the hiring manager as the employee.

2. People, even lousy workers, talk. Treating people with respect on their way out may decrease the person’s negativity/bitterness. Consider it a marketing expense.

3. Severance packages come with legal releases attached, at least in the US. Less risk of lawsuits, frivolous or otherwise.

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