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I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

benhouston3d.com

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Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#111

Post by seabrookmx »

We dabbled with Cloud Run and Cloud Functions (which as of v2 are just a thin layer over Cloud Run anyways).

While they worked fine for HTTP workloads, we wanted to use them to consume from Pub/Sub and unfortunately the "EventArc" integrations are all HTTP-push based. This means there's no back pressure, so if you want the subscription to buffer incoming requests while your daemons work away there's no graceful way to do this. The push subscription will just ramp up attempting to DoS your Cloud Run service.

GKE is more initial overhead (helm and all that junk) but using a vanilla, horizontally scaled Kubernetes deployment with a _pull_ subscription solves this problem completely.

For us, Cloud Run is just a bit too opinionated and GKE Autopilot seems to be the sweet spot.

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#112

Post by valenterry »

rozap wrote: post #105
valenterry wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, let's say you want to deploy server instances. Let's keep it simple and say you want to have 2 instances running. You want to have zero-downtime-deployment. And you want to have these 2 instances be able to access configuration (that contains secrets). You want load balancing, with the option to integrate an external load balancer. And, last, you want to be able to run this setup both locally and also on at least…

A script that installs some dependencies on an Ubuntu vm. A script that rsyncs the build artifact to the machine. The script can drain connections and restart the service using the new build, then onto the next VM. The cloud load balancer points at those VMs and has a health check. It's very simple. Nothing fancy. Our small company uses this setup. We migrated from GCP to AWS when our free GCP credits from YC ran out…

I guess the cloud load balancer is the most custom part. Do you use the alb from aws?

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#113

Post by dikei »

rtpg wrote: post #89
dikei wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even for on-prem scenario, I'd rather maintain a K8S control plane and let developer teams manage their own apps deployment in their own little namespace, than provisioning a bunch of new VMs each time a team need some services deployed.

Even as a K8s hater, this is a pretty salient point. If you are serious about minimizing ops work, you can make sure people are deploying things in very simple ways, and in that world you are looking at _very easy_ deployment strategies relative to having to wire up VMs over and over again. Just feels like lots of devs will take whatever random configs they find online and throw them over the fence, so now you just h…

> Just feels like lots of devs will take whatever random configs they find online and throw them over the fence, so now you just have a big tangled mess for your CRUD app.

Agree.

To reduce the chance a dev pull some random configs out of nowhere, we maintain a Helm template that can be used to deploy almost all of our services in a sane way, just replace the container image and ports. The deployment is probably not optimal, but further tuning can be done after the service is up and we have gathered enough metrics.

We've also put all our configs in one place, since we found that devs tend to copy from existing configs in the repo before searching the internet.

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#114

Post by t-writescode »

voidfunc wrote: post #107
tombert wrote: post #90

I’ve come to the conclusion that I hate “cloud shit”, and a small part of me is convinced that literally no one actually likes it, and everyone is playing a joke on me. I have set up about a dozen rack mount servers in my life, installing basically every flavor of Unix and Linux and message busses under the sun in the process, but I still get confused by all the Kubectl commands and GCP integration with it. I might j…

I'm always kind of blown away by experiences like this. Admittedly, I've been using Kubernetes since the early days and I manage an Infra team that operates a couple thousand self-managed Kubernetes clusters so... expert blindness at work. Before that I did everything from golden images to pushing changes via rsync and kicking a script to deploy. Maybe it's because I adopted early and have grown with the technology i…

> Admittedly, I've been using Kubernetes since the early days and I manage an Infra team

I think this is where the big difference is. If you're leading a team and introduced all good practices from the start, then the k8s and Terraform or whatever config files can never get so very complicated that a Gordian knot isn't created.

Perhaps k8s is nice and easy to use - many of the commands certainly are, in my experience.

Developers have, over years and decades, learned how to navigate code and hop from definition to definition, climbing the tree and learning the language they're operating in, and most of the languages follow similar-enough patterns that they can crawl around.

Configuring a k8s cluster has absolutely none of that knowledge built up; and, reading something that has rough practices is not a good place to learn what it should look like.

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#115

Post by seabrookmx »

igor47 wrote: post #62
czhu12 wrote: post #44

I'm not sure google cloud run can be considered a fair comparison to Kubernetes. It would be like saying AWS Lambda is a lot easier to use than EC2. I've used both Kubernetes and GCR at the current company I cofounded, and theres pros and cons to both. (Team of about 10 engineers) GCR was simple to run simple workloads, but, an out of the box Postgres database can't just handle unlimited connections and so connecting…

Why are GCR and pgbouncer incompatible? Could you run a pgbouncer instance in GCR?

GCR assumes it's workload is HTTP, or a "job" (container that exits once it's task has completed). It scales on request volume and CPU, and the load balancer is integrated into the service. It's not obvious to me how you'd even run a "raw" TCP service like pgbouncer on it.

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#116

Post by adastra22 »

voidfunc wrote: post #107
tombert wrote: post #90

I’ve come to the conclusion that I hate “cloud shit”, and a small part of me is convinced that literally no one actually likes it, and everyone is playing a joke on me. I have set up about a dozen rack mount servers in my life, installing basically every flavor of Unix and Linux and message busses under the sun in the process, but I still get confused by all the Kubectl commands and GCP integration with it. I might j…

I'm always kind of blown away by experiences like this. Admittedly, I've been using Kubernetes since the early days and I manage an Infra team that operates a couple thousand self-managed Kubernetes clusters so... expert blindness at work. Before that I did everything from golden images to pushing changes via rsync and kicking a script to deploy. Maybe it's because I adopted early and have grown with the technology i…

I would buy that book.

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#117

Post by stiray »

tombert wrote: post #90

I’ve come to the conclusion that I hate “cloud shit”, and a small part of me is convinced that literally no one actually likes it, and everyone is playing a joke on me. I have set up about a dozen rack mount servers in my life, installing basically every flavor of Unix and Linux and message busses under the sun in the process, but I still get confused by all the Kubectl commands and GCP integration with it. I might j…

I agree, but what pisses me the most is that today higher level abstractions (like cloud, spring boost,...) are hiding lower level functionality so well, that you are literally forced to use obnoxious amounts of time to study documentation (if you are in luck and it is well written), while everything is decorated with new naming of known concepts that was invented by people who didn't know that the concept already exists and has a name or some marketing guy figured out it will sell better with more "cool" name.

Like Shakespeare work would be clumsy and half translated to french advertising jargoon and you are forced to read it and make it work on a stage.

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#118

Post by catdog »

tapoxi wrote: post #102
tombert wrote: post #90

I’ve come to the conclusion that I hate “cloud shit”, and a small part of me is convinced that literally no one actually likes it, and everyone is playing a joke on me. I have set up about a dozen rack mount servers in my life, installing basically every flavor of Unix and Linux and message busses under the sun in the process, but I still get confused by all the Kubectl commands and GCP integration with it. I might j…

This read as "old man yells at cloud" to me. I've managed a few thousand VMs in the past, and I'm extremely grateful for it. An image is built in CI, service declares what it needs, the scheduler just handles shit. I'm paged significantly less and things are predictable and consistent unlike the world of VMs where even your best attempt at configuration management would result in drift, because the CM system is only…

YAML is fine, esp. compared to the huge collection of often 10x worse config formats you have to deal with in the VM world.

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#119

Post by figassis »

voidfunc wrote: post #107
tombert wrote: post #90

I’ve come to the conclusion that I hate “cloud shit”, and a small part of me is convinced that literally no one actually likes it, and everyone is playing a joke on me. I have set up about a dozen rack mount servers in my life, installing basically every flavor of Unix and Linux and message busses under the sun in the process, but I still get confused by all the Kubectl commands and GCP integration with it. I might j…

I'm always kind of blown away by experiences like this. Admittedly, I've been using Kubernetes since the early days and I manage an Infra team that operates a couple thousand self-managed Kubernetes clusters so... expert blindness at work. Before that I did everything from golden images to pushing changes via rsync and kicking a script to deploy. Maybe it's because I adopted early and have grown with the technology i…

This, all the sidecars. Use kubernetes to run your app like you would without it, take advantage of the flexibility, avoid the extra complexity. Service discovery sidecars? Why not just use the out of the box dns features?

Re: I Didn't Need Kubernetes, and You Probably Don't Either

#120

Post by stiray »

voidfunc wrote: post #107
tombert wrote: post #90

I’ve come to the conclusion that I hate “cloud shit”, and a small part of me is convinced that literally no one actually likes it, and everyone is playing a joke on me. I have set up about a dozen rack mount servers in my life, installing basically every flavor of Unix and Linux and message busses under the sun in the process, but I still get confused by all the Kubectl commands and GCP integration with it. I might j…

I'm always kind of blown away by experiences like this. Admittedly, I've been using Kubernetes since the early days and I manage an Infra team that operates a couple thousand self-managed Kubernetes clusters so... expert blindness at work. Before that I did everything from golden images to pushing changes via rsync and kicking a script to deploy. Maybe it's because I adopted early and have grown with the technology i…

I would buy the book. Just translate all "new language" concepts into well known concepts from networking and system administration. It would be best seller.

If I would only have a penny for each time I wasted hours trying to figure out what something in "modern IT" is, just to figure out that I already knew what it is, but it was well hidden under layers of newspeak...

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