How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired • Hacker News Board

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#111

Post by kybernetikos » Sun, Nov 24, 2024, 12:18 AM UTC

lupire wrote: post #93

kybernetikos wrote: post #14

Most of those examples (not giving enough direction, not training new hires enough, not being clear enough on priorities) are probably not going to be surprises for the person, and if you give feedback that shows you want someone to behave differently without having given some thought about why they aren't already then your feedback talks more about your own lack of experience and empathy than anything else. To give…

I don't think a manager will be impressed by a report saying "I know you can't do your whole job, so let me handle face time with the execs so I can take your job from you."

I can only speak for myself, but if someone I trust wants to solve some of my problems for me, enabling me to be better at my job, I love that and will push for their recognition and promotion.

If I don't trust them to represent me and the team, then obviously that suggestion wouldn't work, but I'm trying to express the difference between someone pointing out a problem as if the problem is just yours or offering to help take responsibility for the problem as part of a team with you.

I've worked with people who made it a point of pride to always bring a concrete, workable suggestion whenever they brought me a problem. We didn't always go with their suggestion, but they were fantastic to work with.

Thankfully, I've never had to worry about keeping good people on my team down out of fear they'd take my job.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#112

Post by Aeolun » Sun, Nov 24, 2024, 12:23 AM UTC

lijok wrote: post #6

Astonishing. Completely backwards. This article describes how to give feedback to your subordinates, not to your superiors. If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. If you find yourself working under such people, don't bother giving feedback, start poli…

I think not raising anyones hackles with your feedback applies pretty universally. It’s too much to expect senior leaders to not be human.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#113

Post by nvarsj » Sun, Nov 24, 2024, 12:24 AM UTC

lucgray wrote: post #72

nithril wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitively agree. Being blunt, too direct is just the opposite of a good and effective communication.

Being too blunt raises defenses and completely wipes out the effectiveness of your feedback. Folks that are invested in outcomes make choices for good reason, and they've probably got a track record to back it up. You have to meet them where they are, and considering their communication styles and how they make decisions will improve the chances you're actually heard. It's a fact of life that people shut down when ap…

> It's a fact of life that people shut down when approached with evidence that refutes their world view or choices.

I don't really agree with you. This is a basic quality of skilled leadership. You want people refuting your worldview with evidence! It lets you correct course and make things better.

Only insecure people shut down like this in my experience.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#114

Post by thaumasiotes » Sun, Nov 24, 2024, 12:27 AM UTC

Kamq wrote: post #101

NAHWheatCracker wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you that's how it should be, but experience tells me that everyone is insecure and it's hardly correlated with position and job security. People lower down the chain are insecure because they could legitimately be let go at any time for any reason. People higher up the chain are insecure because any loss of face is debilitating. Especially having failings pointed out by someone "below" them.

> People higher up the chain are insecure because any loss of face is debilitating. You don't do it in public. There's no face to lose in private (you're a subordinate, face is only lost among peers and superiors). It is, however, not really a good idea to be 100% blunt out of the gate. There's a dance to it. But in public, I'm there to make my manager look good, and in private I'll tell them exactly what I think. On…

[flagged]

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#115

Post by Aeolun » Sun, Nov 24, 2024, 12:27 AM UTC

harimau777 wrote: post #105

Rygian wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think you’re ignoring the “without getting fired” part. The "start polishing your resume" bit was quite explicit.

Unless you are the .1% of developer (and probably with a heaping helping of luck) you aren't going to end up working someplace that isn't terminally dysfunctional no matter how much you polish your resume.

Besides, who wants to work with someone that’s only worked in these terminally dysfunctional workplaces. There must be something wrong with them.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#116

Post by Aeolun » Sun, Nov 24, 2024, 12:30 AM UTC

bradlys wrote: post #11

flog wrote: post #4

This was one of the most exhausting aspects of working for a US company, especially as an H1B. Simply: just don't say anything, it wasn't worth it. I'm from cultures where we bluntly call a spade a spade and pride ourselves on disdain for hierarchy. There's far less fear in raising concerns generally to anyone, but it's quite possibly because of the far better employment laws.

It's not just due to an employee being H1B. It's that 80% of your peers are Chinese and Indian H1Bs who bring that culture of deference to authority into the US. I don't even feel like I'm working in the US when I'm working for any tech company these days. If I'm at ads for FB, I may as well be in Beijing. Some others, I may as well be in Mumbai. It would be nice to work with Americans/westerners for once and actuall…

> It would be nice to work with Americans/westerners for once and actually be able to speak up about something without getting fired.

In my experience Americans layer the “we’re all friends here” on too thickly to ever be described as blunt.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#117

Post by ideasphere » Sun, Nov 24, 2024, 12:30 AM UTC

I agree that bluntness is often mishandled, but the sort of language in this article just reads as wildly disingenuous. Obfuscating your actual point (and visceral, human feelings/opinions/experience!) to hopefully confuse your subject into compliance. Makes me think of that brain-dead article a few years back about how you should dodge offering support in close personal relationships. “I don’t have capacity,” “I’m not paid to perform emotional labour” etc. Sad! Promote humanity!

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#118

Post by nvarsj » Sun, Nov 24, 2024, 12:32 AM UTC

bradlys wrote: post #11

flog wrote: post #4

This was one of the most exhausting aspects of working for a US company, especially as an H1B. Simply: just don't say anything, it wasn't worth it. I'm from cultures where we bluntly call a spade a spade and pride ourselves on disdain for hierarchy. There's far less fear in raising concerns generally to anyone, but it's quite possibly because of the far better employment laws.

It's not just due to an employee being H1B. It's that 80% of your peers are Chinese and Indian H1Bs who bring that culture of deference to authority into the US. I don't even feel like I'm working in the US when I'm working for any tech company these days. If I'm at ads for FB, I may as well be in Beijing. Some others, I may as well be in Mumbai. It would be nice to work with Americans/westerners for once and actuall…

I've had a pretty similar experience in big tech. Some cultures do really seem to struggle with feedback (both giving and receiving). It can be a very painful work environment as a result - given I'm an incredibly direct person.

The best work culture I had was in a dutch firm. People just straight up called bullshit out all the time, and it got fixed fast. So refreshing. I've never been able to find another workplace like that.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#119

Post by zenogantner » Sun, Nov 24, 2024, 12:34 AM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #114

Kamq wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People higher up the chain are insecure because any loss of face is debilitating. You don't do it in public. There's no face to lose in private (you're a subordinate, face is only lost among peers and superiors). It is, however, not really a good idea to be 100% blunt out of the gate. There's a dance to it. But in public, I'm there to make my manager look good, and in private I'll tell them exactly what I think. On…

[flagged]

"The people" are the president's superior.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#120

Post by Kamq » Sun, Nov 24, 2024, 12:36 AM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #114

Kamq wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People higher up the chain are insecure because any loss of face is debilitating. You don't do it in public. There's no face to lose in private (you're a subordinate, face is only lost among peers and superiors). It is, however, not really a good idea to be 100% blunt out of the gate. There's a dance to it. But in public, I'm there to make my manager look good, and in private I'll tell them exactly what I think. On…

[flagged]

The president is not above the people.

In fact, given the context we're talking about (having to go debate to try to get their votes), he's below them in the hierarchy in this particular social context.

The president may be more powerful than any individual person, but when facing the public _collectively_, they're quite literally his boss, as they get to decide if he keeps his job.