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Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

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Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#111

Post by andrewflnr »

meiraleal wrote: post #65
tetrisgm wrote: post #60

The constant Russian interference, combined with the regular escalation from the jets patrolling, and the radar jamming, really needs to be dealt with. We're stuck between having to do timid actions and full NATO escalation. This feels like constant creep.

[flagged]

> Maybe if you guys really think you are much better than Russia that it has no rights to fight back then go there and invade it.

Priceless. Naturally, the only way to prove Russia wrong about NATO aggression is to prove them right about NATO aggression.

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#112

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

thinkingtoilet wrote: post #74
tetrisgm wrote: post #60

The constant Russian interference, combined with the regular escalation from the jets patrolling, and the radar jamming, really needs to be dealt with. We're stuck between having to do timid actions and full NATO escalation. This feels like constant creep.

I agree. Do you want to sign up and go fight in a war? Or should other people besides you die? It's easy to say it "needs to be dealt with" but it's not an easy thing to do.

If you would have asked me while I was a young Marine I'd say, "hell yes." I recall the commandant visiting in Afghanistan and Marines were asking him where the next combat zone is because they are eager for more action.

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#113

Post by JumpCrisscross »

rdtsc wrote: post #82

> "it’s obvious this wasn’t an accidental anchor drop.” If it's "he who shall not be named", gotta admit, that's a clever strategy: ramp up sabotage and see how NATO/EU will feel about their "red lines", and how well does that article 5 really work in practice. Is it worth more than the paper it's printed on? Let's find out! People have been laughing at the West crossing multiple Russian "red lines" and the Russians…

> yet NATO/EU just looks weak and pathetic in the process

Really? Russia, with the 6th largest army in the world, had to pull in Iran and Pyongyang to not get invaded by the 13th largest [1][2].

Moscow is being a nuisance. That doesn't make NATO or Europe look weak, it makes Russia look pathetic.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of...

[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/13/world/europe/ukraine-russ...

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#114

Post by JumpCrisscross »

stavros wrote: post #108
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russia warned that they were going to do this last week Source?

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-pipeline-gas-patrushev-putin... I guess they warned in their own way, of "nice cables you've got there, it would be a shame if someone... sabotaged them".

They're constantly saying this about everything.

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#115

Post by JumpCrisscross »

thinkingtoilet wrote: post #74
tetrisgm wrote: post #60

The constant Russian interference, combined with the regular escalation from the jets patrolling, and the radar jamming, really needs to be dealt with. We're stuck between having to do timid actions and full NATO escalation. This feels like constant creep.

I agree. Do you want to sign up and go fight in a war? Or should other people besides you die? It's easy to say it "needs to be dealt with" but it's not an easy thing to do.

> Or should other people besides you die?

Yes. We literally have a country willing to do this for us if we give them the weapons.

Otherwise, a country whose population is unwilling to fight for itself isn't a country, just a convenient demarcation on a map.

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#117

Post by CapricornNoble »

switchbak wrote: post #84
meiraleal wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Should Russia "fight back"? Did NATO aligned countries cross multiple red lines with too much provocation? ... This has been argued to death, and I'm not wasting my time on that here. Were it not for the nuclear concern, Russia could be dispatched by a modern military in short order. They're having enough of a challenge with Ukraine. Against a real military with SEAD/DEAD, you would witness an Iraq 1991-style collaps…

> Against a real military with SEAD/DEAD, you would witness an Iraq 1991-style collapse within weeks, perhaps less

Other than the US....can you name some "real militaries with SEAD/DEAD" that actually have deep enough ordnance stockpiles, sufficient basing/aerial refueling to support a sustained air campaign against a country as large and well-equipped as Russia, etc..?

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#118

Post by jerlam »

tetrisgm wrote: post #60

The constant Russian interference, combined with the regular escalation from the jets patrolling, and the radar jamming, really needs to be dealt with. We're stuck between having to do timid actions and full NATO escalation. This feels like constant creep.

From history: "Flexible Response" was a policy implemented by JFK in 1961, in response to previous administration's over-reliance on massive retaliation.

Of course, it dragged the United States into Vietnam as things slowly escalated.

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#119

Post by JumpCrisscross »

petre wrote: post #102
regnull wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution is to project strength and hit them where they don't expect. You are dealing with a thug, not a cost/benefit accountant, as Obama seemed to mistakenly believe. As long as they do things and we respond, nothing good will happen. They have already calculated the response and found it acceptable. Instead of this, go to the mattresses. Oh, your bridge has suddenly exploded? Shame.

"We" already screwed their pipeline, what's left? Provide Ukraine with the means to blow up the Kerch bridge maybe? They're the ones that could legitimately do that sort of escalation.

> what's left?

The other pipelines. Their shadow oil fleet. There are lots of options. But to my knowledge, only the British, French and Americans are capable of the long-range clandestine operations.

Re: Two undersea cables in Baltic Sea disrupted

#120

Post by abraxas »

exceptione wrote: post #104
VyseofArcadia wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have read reams of rhetoric regarding relations with Russia rehashed as "don't poke the bear". No one ever seems to want to discuss what to do about the bear going around poking everyone else.

The bear metaphore is indeed nonsense. Russia is not a bear, you are dealing with a bunch of state level criminals. The state of Russia is essentially better understood as a criminal gang masquerading as a country. Those stealing, money laundering, killing, trafficking an warring circles of oligarchs are heavily rooted in Intelligence Services, inside and abroad. Some of those oligarchs even have private militaries.…

[flagged]
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