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YC is wrong about LLMs for chip design

zach.be

111–120 of 283 posts

Re: YC is wrong about LLMs for chip design

#111
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly because the marginal cost of microwaves was not close to zero.

Mostly because they were not making claims that sentient microwaves that would cook your food for you were just around the corner which then the most respected media outlets parroted uncritically.

Even rice cookers started doing this by advertising "fuzzy logic".

Re: YC is wrong about LLMs for chip design

#112

YC doesn't care whether it "makes sense" to use an LLM to design chips. They're as technically incompetent as any other VC, and their only interest is to pump out dogshit startups in the hopes it gets acquired. Gary Tan doesn't care about "making better chips": he cares about finding a sucker to buy out a shitty, hype-based company for a few billion. An old school investment bank would be perfect. YC is technically i…

First, VCs don't get paid when "dogshit startups" get acquired, they get paid when they have true outlier successes. It's the only way to reliably make money in the VC business.

Second, want to give any examples of "shitty, hype-based compan[ies]" (I assume you mean companies with no real revenue traction) getting bought out for "a few billion".

Third, investment banks facilitate sales of assets, they don't buy them themselves.

Maybe sit out the conversation if you don't even know the basics of how VC, startups, or banking work?

Re: YC is wrong about LLMs for chip design

#113
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly because they were not making claims that sentient microwaves that would cook your food for you were just around the corner which then the most respected media outlets parroted uncritically.

I mean, they were at one point making pretty extravagant claims about microwaves, but to a less credulous audience. Trouble with LLMs is that they look like magic if you don’t look too hard, particularly to laypeople. It’s far easier to buy into a narrative that they actually _are_ magic, or will become so.

I feel like what makes this a bit different from just regular old sufficiently advanced technology is the combination of two things:

- LLMs are extremely competent at surface-level pattern matching and manipulation of the type we'd previously assumed that only AGI would be able to do.

- A large fraction of tasks (and by extension jobs) that we used to, and largely still do, consider to be "knowledge work", i.e. requiring a high level of skill and intelligence, are in fact surface-level pattern matching and manipulation.

Reconciling these facts raises some uncomfortable implications, and calling LLMs "actually intelligent" lets us avoid these.

Re: YC is wrong about LLMs for chip design

#114
post #9

They want to throw LLMs at everything even if it does not make sense. Same is true for all the AI agent craze: https://medium.com/thoughts-on-machine-learning/langchains-s...

> I knew it was bullshit from the get-go as soon as I read their definition of AI agents.

That is one spicy article, it got a few laughs out of me. I must agree 100% that Langchain is an abomination, both their APIs as well as their marketing.

Re: YC is wrong about LLMs for chip design

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If feels like the entire world has gone crazy. Even the serious idea that the article thinks could work is throwing the unreliable LLMs at verification ! If there's any place you can use something that doesn't work most of the time, I guess it's there.

This happens all the time. Once it was spices. Then poppies. Modern art. The .com craze. Those blockchain ape images. Blockchain. Now LLM. All of these had a bit of true value and a whole load of bullshit. Eventually the bullshit disappears and the core remains, and the world goes nuts about the next thing.

Exactly. I’ve seen this enough now to appreciate that oft repeated tech adoption curve. It seems like we are in “peak expectations” phase which is immediately followed by the disillusionment and then maturity phase.

Re: YC is wrong about LLMs for chip design

#116
post #10

I don’t mind LLMs in the ideation and learning phases, which aren’t reproducible anyway. But I still find it hard to believe engineers of all people are eager to put a slow, expensive, non-deterministic black box right at the core of extremely complex systems that need to be reliable, inspectable, understandable…

You mean, like humans have been for many decades now. Edit: I believe that LLM's are eminently useful to replace experts (of all people) 90% of the time.

Experts of the kind that will be able to talk for hours about the academic consensus on the status quo without once considering how the question at hand might challenge it? Quite likely.

Experts capable of critical thinking and reflecting on evidence that contradicts their world model (and thereby retraining it on the fly)? Most likely not, at least not in their current architecture with all its limitations.

Re: YC is wrong about LLMs for chip design

#117
post #36
post #9

They want to throw LLMs at everything even if it does not make sense. Same is true for all the AI agent craze: https://medium.com/thoughts-on-machine-learning/langchains-s...

please dont post a link that is behind a paywall !!

Please don't complain about paywalls: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989

Re: YC is wrong about LLMs for chip design

#118
post #64
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://archive.is/dLp6t It is a registration wall I think.

Same result. Information locks are verboten.

As annoying as I find them, on this site they're in fact not: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989

Re: YC is wrong about LLMs for chip design

#119
They (YC) are interested in the use of LLMs to make the process of designing chips more efficient. Nowhere do they talk about LLMs actually designing chips.

I don't know anything about chip design, but like any area in tech I'm certain there are cumbersome and largely repetitive tasks that can't easily be done by algorithms but can be done with human oversight by LLMs. There's efficiency to be gained here if the designer and operator of the LLM system know what they're doing.

Re: YC is wrong about LLMs for chip design

#120

I know nothing about chip design. But saying "Applying AI to field X won't work, because X is complex, and LLMs currently have subhuman performance at this" always sounds dubious. VCs are not investing in the current LLM-based systems to improve X, they're investing in a future where LLM based systems will be 100x more performant. Writing is complex, LLMs once had subhuman performance, and yet. Digital art. Music (se…

I didn't get into this in the article, but one of the major challenges with achieving superhuman performance on Verilog is the lack of high-quality training data. Most professional-quality Verilog is closed source, so LLMs are generally much worse at writing Verilog than, say, Python. And even still, LLMs are pretty bad at Python!
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