Jury awards American Airline $9.4M from website behind 'skiplagging' hack • Hacker News Board

Re: Jury awards American Airline $9.4M from website behind 'skiplagging' hack

#111

Post by teo_zero » Sat, Oct 19, 2024, 8:04 PM UTC

hunter2_ wrote: post #104

teo_zero wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the A->B->C example, probably the subsidy they get for B->C is so much higher than its real cost that they can use such "profit" to finance part of the first leg. If you skip the final leg, you risk spoiling their scheme to extract more-than-needed money from the government.

Even if the subsidy for B->C is not higher than the real cost at all... if they set their A->B->C ticket prices such that (revenues == expenses), and a skipped leg results in any hit to revenue (i.e. losing a subsidy of amount x) along with a reduction in expenses (i.e. less weight means less fuel of amount y), then they are going to take a loss any time x>y.

Sorry, how is this different from what I said? The condition x>y, with x the subsidy and y the expense, is exactly what I intended with "subsidy they get [is] higher than its real cost".

Re: Jury awards American Airline $9.4M from website behind 'skiplagging' hack

#112

Post by hunter2_ » Sat, Oct 19, 2024, 8:29 PM UTC

teo_zero wrote: post #111

hunter2_ wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if the subsidy for B->C is not higher than the real cost at all... if they set their A->B->C ticket prices such that (revenues == expenses), and a skipped leg results in any hit to revenue (i.e. losing a subsidy of amount x) along with a reduction in expenses (i.e. less weight means less fuel of amount y), then they are going to take a loss any time x>y.

Sorry, how is this different from what I said? The condition x>y, with x the subsidy and y the expense, is exactly what I intended with "subsidy they get [is] higher than its real cost".

Oh, I interpreted your "its real cost" as everything that goes into the service (i.e. everything the airline does to hold up their end of the deal, which goes well beyond fuel) whereas in my version I'm defining y far more narrowly: the fuel needed to haul the weight of the person.

The subsidy could easily exceed the fuel, which means losing the subsidy despite saving on fuel is something the airline legitimately wants to avoid. They won't be in a worse position than if the seat went unsold, but it'll be worse than if they had a flying passenger.

Re: Jury awards American Airline $9.4M from website behind 'skiplagging' hack

#113

Post by sdwr » Sat, Oct 19, 2024, 10:31 PM UTC

nneonneo wrote: post #30

radpanda wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I like the idea of being hostile to the airlines so I’ve used Skiplagged to search for flights before but I’ve never found a hidden city itinerary that I actually wanted to take. I’m guessing it probably makes sense with certain airports with high fees near concentrations of wealth? E.g. maybe London->NYC costs more than London(->NYC)->Albany because NYC airports have high fees and airlines presume wealthier…

I don’t even think it’s a “wealthier clientele” thing. Some routes are literally subsidized - for example, the Essential Air Service program pays airlines to run flights to places that would otherwise be unprofitable to fly to, and due to the grants the airlines can offer the complete route for (relatively) cheap. So, for example, it might be expensive to fly New York to Chicago, but subsidized (and cheaper) to fly N…

Don't airlines have to pay for and/or actively use slots at some major airports? So New York to Chicago is a "mandatory" flight for the airline, but Chicago to Podunk is scheduled based on demand.

Re: Jury awards American Airline $9.4M from website behind 'skiplagging' hack

#114

Post by kortilla » Sun, Oct 20, 2024, 1:15 AM UTC

samaltmaan wrote: post #54

kortilla wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I implore you to explain how deplaning means they can’t be competitive. If I jump out of the airplane halfway through a flight, how does that change their pricing beyond me saving them fuel? The only way this makes sense is a segment rebate scheme for flights to underserved communities. But I don’t think this is what’s at play here because it’s not mentioned at all.

Half of HN works in SaaS or similar but it seems I need to explain. Price discrimination is a selling strategy that charges customers different prices for the same product or service based on what the seller believes it can get the customer to agree to. In pure price discrimination, the seller charges each customer the maximum price they will pay. In more common forms of price discrimination, the seller segments cust…

You’re really struggling to explain here because you know it doesn’t make sense. It has nothing to do with price discrimination because the airline collected the fare either way.

If I offered pizza and a drink for $2 or just pizza for $5 and someone buys the former and chucks the drink, that is not their problem, it’s mine for being an idiot.

I didn’t say anything about a parachute. Don’t be dense.

Re: Jury awards American Airline $9.4M from website behind 'skiplagging' hack

#115

Post by kortilla » Sun, Oct 20, 2024, 1:16 AM UTC

altairprime wrote: post #35

kortilla wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn’t answer the question though. If someone didn’t deplane and fulfilled the itinerary, it would cost the airline even more in fuel. Their argument is complete nonsense that they could have sold the seat for more because it’s just as valid if you actually took the flight. It’s like them taking action against you because you booked in advance and they decided they could have charged you more. WTF?

If you’d booked (H) then you would have paid more; they’re upset that you cost them the unrealized profit of P(H-X) - P(H), and also upset at the lost opportunity of selling a double-booked ticket to another passenger into your empty seat for an additional P(whatever), without having to refund you for your unused flight leg. Two profit opportunities lost for one service rendered is, to a corporation, roughly equivale…

That’s a BS argument though because I might not have purchased the single leg fare from them in the first place.

Re: Jury awards American Airline $9.4M from website behind 'skiplagging' hack

#116

Post by altairprime » Sun, Oct 20, 2024, 5:41 AM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #115

altairprime wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’d booked (H) then you would have paid more; they’re upset that you cost them the unrealized profit of P(H-X) - P(H), and also upset at the lost opportunity of selling a double-booked ticket to another passenger into your empty seat for an additional P(whatever), without having to refund you for your unused flight leg. Two profit opportunities lost for one service rendered is, to a corporation, roughly equivale…

That’s a BS argument though because I might not have purchased the single leg fare from them in the first place.

There are many reasons their argument is BS, yes. Explanation successful :)

Re: Jury awards American Airline $9.4M from website behind 'skiplagging' hack

#117

Post by 15155 » Sun, Oct 20, 2024, 9:29 AM UTC

dreamcompiler wrote: post #72

15155 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now they can and they do. Which is why the airlines love that the government "forces" them to check your ID. Where is this happening? On over 100 domestic flights post-9/11, I've never had an airline review my ID - only on international flights has this occurred. The TSA or their private equivalent will match your ID to a boarding pass, but even now that's going away at major airports in favor of ID scans. Regardle…

Yes there is. The airlines used to check IDs themselves. Now their computers talk to those of the TSA so the TSA effectively does this for them. In your scenario, when you fail to board Airplane B that event gets flagged. Not a huge deal but you might have a problem getting a refund. When you try to board Airplane A the fun begins. You will be stopped because the ID for that boarding pass never went through a TSA che…

> The airlines used to check IDs themselves. Now their computers talk to those of the TSA so the TSA effectively does this for them.

Have you flown pre-9/11? I've never had an airline check my ID domestically, pre or post-9/11 in any TSA or privately-secured airport. When did this magical computer integration happen? Citation? How do I start an airline? - relevant CFRs and required systems capabilities should be publicly documented?

> You will be stopped because the ID for that boarding pass never went through a TSA checkpoint.

Citation needed. Personal experience absolutely differs here. These are archaic systems and can't even handle middle names consistently.

Also, what a joke: my unmarried passport has a completely different name, but I am flying with a boarding pass ticketed to my married-name DL. My wife does this regularly and it's not illegal.

In the last several years even, I've purchased countless flights post-security, sometimes tens of minutes prior to boarding. These people are just not this organized.

"Fallacies programmers believe about X" applies here: names and DOBs are far less "matchable" than you'd believe them to be.

> What if you go back through TSA again, this time with the other boarding pass? They only check IDs now, so you'd need a second ID that also had your picture on it. Drivers licences were easy to forge 20 years ago. Not so much now, especially with the RealID mandate.

It's a wonder where a $2000 Zebra dye sublimation printer and $3 Chinese-origin multi-spectrum holographic overlaminates will take you. Add a PDF417 barcode with zero authentication and you've got a pretty simple task.

> Even then it wouldn't work because TSA has face recognition now. If you try to go through a second time with a different ID but a similar face on the same day, you will almost certainly be detained and probably arrested.

So, opt-out of facial recognition in favor of enhanced screening? I do this regardless of any other factors

How does this even make sense?.. Twins can't fly together without detention? My doppelganger is now going to invite law enforcement scrutiny? The point of this facial recognition wasn't to prevent fake or duplicate real IDs, it was to prevent people using IDs without matching photos and tricking incompetent minimum-wage screeners.

Singular dollars in makeup and the correct lighting conditions completely destroy these matching systems, as well.

(Thankfully, efforts are being made to eliminate TSA facial recognition tech: https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/senate-bill/336...)

You've got a wildly overinflated view of the competency and the capabilities of this government jobs program: probably exactly what they are going for.

Re: Jury awards American Airline $9.4M from website behind 'skiplagging' hack

#118

Post by 15155 » Sun, Oct 20, 2024, 9:40 AM UTC

mandeepj wrote: post #65

15155 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now they can and they do. Which is why the airlines love that the government "forces" them to check your ID. Where is this happening? On over 100 domestic flights post-9/11, I've never had an airline review my ID - only on international flights has this occurred. The TSA or their private equivalent will match your ID to a boarding pass, but even now that's going away at major airports in favor of ID scans. Regardle…

> then using whatever name you want on a flight with Airline A. Where do you live? Your boarding pass is scanned at the gate; you can’t just board any flight with your boarding pass from any other flight

You use boarding pass A with a matching ID to get through security and then board an aircraft with boarding pass B with a random name on it.

Re: Jury awards American Airline $9.4M from website behind 'skiplagging' hack

#119

Post by blactuary » Sun, Oct 20, 2024, 2:39 PM UTC

doctorpangloss wrote: post #57

blactuary wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, and since they routinely oversell flights, I have zero sympathy for them. Negative sympathy even

Do you think ticket prices should be lower, or higher? What remedy do you prefer to achieve your goal?

I think ticket prices should reflect a combination of the cost of goods sold with a reasonable profit margin, supply and demand, and competitive pressure from market forces, with regulations to prevent fraud and anti-competitive behavior.

Re: Jury awards American Airline $9.4M from website behind 'skiplagging' hack

#120

Post by jfengel » Tue, Oct 22, 2024, 8:39 PM UTC

perihelions wrote: post #48

I'm astonished it's currently legal for airlines to ban passengers for optimizing their ticket fares—for taking the offers the airlines themselves publicly tender, and being too competent at choosing at the best one. - "American reportedly removed a 17-year-old from a flight last year and banned him for three years when he tried to fly from Gainesville, Florida, to Charlotte, North Carolina, on a ticket with a final…

The advertised offer says "no skiplagging". It's buried in the fine print, but it is indeed there.

You can probably get away with it once, if you convince them that you didn't know. But if you've done it before, they'll say that you knew what the terms of the deal were.