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Why birds do not fall while sleeping

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Re: Why birds do not fall while sleeping

#111

Post by mr_mitm »

roywashere wrote: post #79
avar wrote: post #77

This article doesn't even try to address what I feel is the deeper and more interesting question (but probably one that can't be answered): Why is it that horses, cows, giraffes and birds have all had to come up with a purely passive solution of "locking" themselves in place, either via their joints (for the four-legged), or via the tendon mechanism described here for birds? I.e. why wasn't in simpler in evolutionary…

Just as we can still breathe and digest food while sleeping!

We can even adjust our sleeping position while sleeping, possibly to avoid bedsores? But perhaps avoiding falling requires more processing power.

Re: Why birds do not fall while sleeping

#112

Post by johnisgood »

roywashere wrote: post #79
avar wrote: post #77

This article doesn't even try to address what I feel is the deeper and more interesting question (but probably one that can't be answered): Why is it that horses, cows, giraffes and birds have all had to come up with a purely passive solution of "locking" themselves in place, either via their joints (for the four-legged), or via the tendon mechanism described here for birds? I.e. why wasn't in simpler in evolutionary…

Just as we can still breathe and digest food while sleeping!

Concurrency at its finest I say!

Re: Why birds do not fall while sleeping

#113

Post by lioeters »

Traubenfuchs wrote: post #69
defrost wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So do humans, babies and the elderly especially. What has 4 legs in the morning, 2 in the afternoon, and 3 in the evening? The key here is how relaxed is the interpretation of "permanent".

> What has 4 legs in the morning, 2 in the afternoon, and 3 in the evening? A table. My table. To solve this stupid riddle, I remove 2 of its legs before afternoon and screw one of them back on before the evening. Sphinx, I dare you to refute me.

Pretty sure the Sphinx was talking about my "third leg" in the evening. In the morning I crawl on all fours until I get my coffee.

Re: Why birds do not fall while sleeping

#114

Post by dfxm12 »

lpat wrote: post #100
nkrisc wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you know that our trachea is not an optimal design when you take into account all the tradeoffs? Because if we were designed from scratch we could have been designed in any optimal shape or form. > You're surrounded by items created by intelligent design (us) and all of them have flaws, reused parts and tend to break. Obviously you wouldn't argue based on this that they weren't designed by intelligent beings…

> Because if we were designed from scratch we could have been designed in any optimal shape or form Only if you assume the designer had infinite time, knowledge and resources. But life on Earth did not have to be created by some omnipotent god who created universe. It only requires more advanced intelligence than us. Although theoretically even we may reach this level in the future with advances in bioengineering. >…

Only if you assume the designer had infinite time, knowledge and resources. But life on Earth did not have to be created by some omnipotent god who created universe.

No need to be so coy. Who/what else do proponents of intelligent design believe designed us if not an omnipotent, omniscient, God? Ancient aliens? Deep Thought?

Re: Why birds do not fall while sleeping

#115

Post by johnisgood »

mr_mitm wrote: post #111
roywashere wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just as we can still breathe and digest food while sleeping!

We can even adjust our sleeping position while sleeping, possibly to avoid bedsores? But perhaps avoiding falling requires more processing power.

Yes, adjusting our sleeping position has to do with the sensation of pain, a stimuli (pain, discomfort, pressure points) that cause most individuals to reposition during sleep, i.e. it is the sensation of pain from pressure buildup that triggers the need to move during sleep. You are right, it is to prevent prolonged compression of tissues, to avoid bedsores, nerve damage, etc.

That said, this is not the whole story, because there are people with a rare genetic disorder called CIPA which completely prevents the feeling of pain, but they still reposition themselves, so besides pain, it is muscle fatigue (that prompts subconscious movements), autonomic reflexes, and well, sleep cycles or phases also lead to the body shifting positions unconsciously.

In any case, people with CIPA are at a much higher risk of developing complications related to immobility because they do not experience the typical discomfort (pain) that triggers movement.

Re: Why birds do not fall while sleeping

#116

Post by wruza »

smusamashah wrote: post #91
nkrisc wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you’re describing evolution.

I am. I am also saying you can not design us any better than what we are today. You can't look into next billion years. Whatever becomes of us at the point will the best design at that point. The optimal design you are suggesting has zero guarantees to keep working. If anything, your optimal design is just another mutation that may or may not survive time.

You absolutely can. Moreover, assuming enough technological and cultural evolution in e.g. 1000-10000 years, it will likely be done, if not completely replaced and redesigned.

The fact that conditions change doesn’t make your current form ideal.

Speaking of conditions.

In 5 billion years there will be no need for natural selection cause Earth will dip into the exploding Sun and evolution game will be over. Nothing will keep working. Even in 1B years it will be pretty hot outside. We’ll have no time for that “optimal” crap anymore, starting now tbh, considering our stupid tribal nature and the complexity of overcoming it.

Btw, if we fail to continue our current civilization, there will be no another civilization, cause we’ve drained all under-your-feet resources long ago. The next civilization will be forever farmers slowly burned by a star.

We absolutely can escape this fate by finding something much better than a bare minimum.

Edit: messed up numbers, fixed

Re: Why birds do not fall while sleeping

#117

Post by jajko »

interludead wrote: post #85
meindnoch wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, why didn't any animal evolve a way to avoid sleep completely?

Sleep has crucial role in survival and well-being

Yeah but what role? 24h always at least a bit running brain has also crucial role in survival.

I get some form of maintenance is needed, but 8h every day seems like an overkill for very significant disadvantages. Many other mammals require significantly less sleep.

Re: Why birds do not fall while sleeping

#118

Post by [deleted] »

nkrisc wrote: post #88
lpat wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's pretty weak argument against intelligent design. 1. The designer does not have to be "omniscient" only intelligent. Some people believe in it's omniscience but I don't think it's a requirement. 2. How do you know that our trachea is not an optimal design when you take into account all the tradeoffs? 3. You're surrounded by items created by intelligent design (us) and all of them have flaws, reused parts and te…

> How do you know that our trachea is not an optimal design when you take into account all the tradeoffs? Because if we were designed from scratch we could have been designed in any optimal shape or form. > You're surrounded by items created by intelligent design (us) and all of them have flaws, reused parts and tend to break. Obviously you wouldn't argue based on this that they weren't designed by intelligent beings…

[deleted]

Re: Why birds do not fall while sleeping

#119

Post by rakoo »

smusamashah wrote: post #87
nkrisc wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fascination with “intelligent design” is cherry-picking. The is no shortage of “unintelligent design” in the natural world. Take humans, for example. You can block your trachea and die through the simple act of eating. An intelligent (and omniscient) designer could have avoided that by better designing our overall our overall structure. Or take the fact or ear bones are modified jaw bones. Or if you believe in in…

When you notice these flaws you are seeing it in very very short term. What we are today is what eventually worked for a million years. The design you see today is the way it is because it had to be robust enough (including those problems) to survive to this day. The examples you quote do look like a problem today, but I think they must have worked to some benefit to bring us here.

> I think they must have worked to some benefit to bring us here.

No, the other consequence of evolution is that whatever we are today is not enough to kill us. Some of the things in our bodies and behavior are just useless, but not bad enough that they endanger our life and cut the genetic deviation responsible for it, so it just keeps on being there.

There's no good reason we still have 5 fingers on feet, but they're also not bad enough that having them all would endanger us as as species, so they just stay there.

Re: Why birds do not fall while sleeping

#120

Post by ssener2001 »

nkrisc wrote: post #72
Crazyontap wrote: post #12

When I was younger, I was fascinated by evolution, especially the intricacies of how things just work. This fascination also explains why many people believe in the intelligent design theory. However, witnessing the rapid evolution of AI with just a few hundred GPUs, enough data, and power, I no longer wonder what a billion years of feedback loops and randomness can achieve.

The fascination with “intelligent design” is cherry-picking. The is no shortage of “unintelligent design” in the natural world. Take humans, for example. You can block your trachea and die through the simple act of eating. An intelligent (and omniscient) designer could have avoided that by better designing our overall our overall structure. Or take the fact or ear bones are modified jaw bones. Or if you believe in in…

Where has our mind shown the capacity to be an engineer of the universe? With this limited intellect, we cannot encompass the beauty of the whole. Even if it were beneath a forearm-length nose, if only attention were paid to it, beauty could still be found!"
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