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Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

qcnews.com

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Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#111

Post by michaelt »

jdenning wrote: post #21
_djo_ wrote: post #11

While this sort of thing sounds excessive and unfair at first glance, and the article is written with a clear slant, there's usually a good reason for it. Disaster response and rescue air missions are enormously complex with a lot of moving parts, and allowing anyone with an aircraft to get involved can actually make the entire response less effective. It's extremely common for disaster response and search & rescue t…

So if the official who threatened arrest was the "correct" firefighter to coordinate with, why didn't the official incorporate him into the larger operation rather than threaten him? I think the most likely answer is a small town bureaucrat had to prove that he's in charge, and now they're trying to do some damage control.

> I think the most likely answer is a small town bureaucrat had to prove that he's in charge, and now they're trying to do some damage control.

I listened to a lot of reporting about a major fire in my country, and one of the things I learned was that ways of working that run like a well-oiled machine for minor and medium-sized disasters can completely fall apart in a large disaster.

For example, a rescue team is dispatched to Family A, but on their way they encounter Family B who are in imminent danger, and rescue them instead. Or maybe the rescue team are from a few towns over, all the signs are fucked, and they rescue Family C from a different street and think they've got Family A.

Well, if it's a medium-sized disaster you can coordinate this stuff on a whiteboard. But in a large disaster, where lots of irregular stuff is going on? Very easy for an update to get missed - then the whiteboard says Family A has a rescue team on the way, and the next free rescue team gets dispatched to Family B or C's empty home.

On the other hand, the whiteboard system is what you and your team know best, it's served you well in fires in low-rise buildings etc in the past, and the middle of a major incident doesn't seem like the time to adopt a different system. I can easily understand clinging to a familiar system even when it's not working very well.

So I can understand why, even when the person coordinating the response arguably should have integrated a volunteer with a helicopter, they might not have been ready to.

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#112

Post by ChoHag »

_djo_ wrote: post #110
kstenerud wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“He originally asked me who I was. I gave him the same information, who I was with, my background experience, law enforcement, and firefighting. And his response was, if you have that kind of experience, you should know that you should be coordinating with us. And I said, I’ve been coordinating with everybody as I’ve been here just the day before, speaking with local law enforcement, other rescue personnel,” Seidhom…

Which is why he should've reached out to the Carolina Emergency Response Team or a related organisation first, rather than the possibly-overwhelmed local first responders who have no role in coordinating the air response.

[dead]

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#113

Post by shakow »

_djo_ wrote: post #82
shakow wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAICT from TFA, it looks like this cell could only have been active from Sept. 30th, as it was when the no-flight zone was removed. IIUC, the guy started its stuff the 28th, and the incident happened the 29th.

The cell was active before, CERT is assisting it, not replacing it. The article doesn't provide the necessary background information on when it started operations, only when the subject of the article became aware of it.

> The cell was active before

Then why was a no-fly zone set up? That sounds pretty counter-productive?

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#114

Post by Kim_Bruning »

traceroute66 wrote: post #99
fleabagmange wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was an S.C. Pilot flying into NC, and for what it’s worth the area he was flying supplies into was, to put it in desktop GUI terms CTRL-A and CTRL-SHIFT-DELETE All the people clamoring to defend the lame fire chief against the defend just don’t get it. This a world-class disaster area and if someone is willing to risk their own safety to get supplies to people in imminent threat of perishing themselves… that’s a g…

> if someone is willing to risk their own safety Except its not "their own safety". If the guy crashes, or runs out of fuel, or has a mechanical fault, or, or ..... What happens then ? Oh yeah, that's right, the professionals have to come scoop up the remains. Its all fun and games playing the hero, until the fun stops.

I'm willing to believe he was flying according to FAA regulations, which includes flying a properly maintained and fueled aircraft and taking all applicable hazards into account. (This is the basic assumption of good faith. That and I presume he has a license which says he's able to operate his helicopter competently and safely.)

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#115

Post by _djo_ »

shakow wrote: post #113
_djo_ wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cell was active before, CERT is assisting it, not replacing it. The article doesn't provide the necessary background information on when it started operations, only when the subject of the article became aware of it.

> The cell was active before Then why was a no-fly zone set up? That sounds pretty counter-productive?

Not really. The no-fly zone still allows for military flights and any flights authorised by them or whoever else is performing the air traffic coordination.

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#116

Post by _djo_ »

trhway wrote: post #107
_djo_ wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Random individuals flying their drones are a hazard to rescue helicopters and other aircraft.

that is because no drone-incorporating airspace control system exists right now. The question is why such a system is not even in planning stages. >Random individuals flying their drones are a hazard to rescue helicopters and other aircraft. Is it so really? In Ukraine war a lot of de-facto random individuals from both sides are flying a lot of drones without pretty much any coordination and control system and in com…

> that is because no drone-incorporating airspace control system exists right now. The question is why such a system is not even in planning stages.

There are several approaches to this problem, but it usually requires that the drones are all running compatible control and communication software. e.g. [0] https://www.flytbase.com/blog/drone-disaster-relief

> Is it so really? In Ukraine war a lot of de-facto random individuals from both sides are flying a lot of drones without pretty much any coordination and control system and in combat conditions, much tougher than civilian emergency, and mostly in FPV mode without direct LOS, frequently at night, yet no drone-helicopter/aircraft collisions have so far been reported (and everybody watching the aircraft and helicopter losses very closely)

Those people aren't random, they're part of organised military forces and are part of command and control networks. Troops do reduce certain types of drone activities when they're informed that their own aircraft will be overlying their positions. And that's even though both sides are flying comparatively few helicopter sorties at the front lines because of the constant threat from air defence.

As an aside, there have been collisions, at least one of which was intentional.

[0] https://www.flytbase.com/blog/drone-disaster-relief

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#117

Post by trhway »

_djo_ wrote: post #116
trhway wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that is because no drone-incorporating airspace control system exists right now. The question is why such a system is not even in planning stages. >Random individuals flying their drones are a hazard to rescue helicopters and other aircraft. Is it so really? In Ukraine war a lot of de-facto random individuals from both sides are flying a lot of drones without pretty much any coordination and control system and in com…

> that is because no drone-incorporating airspace control system exists right now. The question is why such a system is not even in planning stages. There are several approaches to this problem, but it usually requires that the drones are all running compatible control and communication software. e.g. [0] https://www.flytbase.com/blog/drone-disaster-relief > Is it so really? In Ukraine war a lot of de-facto random in…

>Those people aren't random, they're part of organised military forces and are part of command and control networks.

these C&C networks don't control drones in the air. And most the people in the both fighting forces are mostly random ones really. If they got drones, frequently bought themselves or donated by volunteers - they fly them, if not - then not.

> Troops do reduce certain types of drone activities when they're informed that their own aircraft will be overlying their positions.

I don't know where you heard this. From what i heard - they frequently even can't discern whether this is their drone or an enemy's one.

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#118

Post by aneutron »

_djo_ wrote: post #109
aneutron wrote: post #101

A lot of folks in the comments are acting like this was one of what they refer to as "cowboys". Yet the guy went through each and every hoop to cooperate and coordinate properly with the ATC (which should dispell all the "100 planes in the air" worries) and the local IC (that set up a landing zone for the guy and gave him the frequencies to coordinate). I understand that there may be some vigilantes that would ignore…

The only ATC the article says he spoke to was the Tower at Charlotte-Douglas International, to get permission to fly over the airport. They only manage the area immediately around the airport, and it's not the ATC that's coordinating the disaster response and managing the aircraft over the disaster area.

That is my point. Any order regarding flight restrictions will be immediately disseminated by the local ATC, and I do understand that the ATC does not coordinate the rescue effort over the area, my point is he DID get the permission and actively attempted and successfully coordinated and complied withe the DR team who set up a landing zone for him.

My point being this is a clear failure of the IC (the fire chief in this case)

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#119

Post by h2odragon »

The disaster porn false reports have been nasty; but not as bad as Katrina, in nature or in reach.

We've got people repeating (false, AFAIK) reports that "supplies are being confiscated!" but as yet I haven't seen major media saying "cannibalism!"

The most pernicious propaganda on this one is going to be "its not worth rebuilding." Its going to take major effort to pry some of the rednecks out of their ancestral mountain homes but there's apparently a lot of people ready to begin already.

Re: Pilot flying Helene rescue missions in NC threatened with arrest

#120

Post by Kim_Bruning »

traceroute66 wrote: post #69
_djo_ wrote: post #11

While this sort of thing sounds excessive and unfair at first glance, and the article is written with a clear slant, there's usually a good reason for it. Disaster response and rescue air missions are enormously complex with a lot of moving parts, and allowing anyone with an aircraft to get involved can actually make the entire response less effective. It's extremely common for disaster response and search & rescue t…

> This is one guy and his helicopter, which in the greater scheme of things isn't so bad. But imagine it's 20, 30, or a 100 all doing what he's doing. Also don't forget the basic motto of First Responders .... "don't become a statistic by adding yourself to the count". The fact of the matter here also is that law enforcement, first responders, search and rescue etc. etc. do this sort of stuff all day long every day.…

So he was a licensed pilot flying in normal/unregulated airspace (initially no flight restrictions in NOTAM) . So his actions to that point were legal (and within the limits of regular established protocols, to use your terminology) .

If officials want civilians out of their hair they can declare a temporary flight restriction, which in fact someone did declare 30 minutes after the discussion with the fire official. (And it is strongly implied it was the fire official)

That said, some of the people on the ground actually promised to shield him; so there appears to have been a rather strong organizational split wrt attitudes towards pilot assistance. [1]

Note that a TFR MAY include coordination contact information. Which this one apparently did: "CTC ASHEVILLE APP WITHIN 20NM ON 125.8" (from the map summary in the September 29 screenshot in the article).

The balance of your thesis does seem to come under pressure with the Mon 30 Sept screenshot; which shows the TFR lifted and multiple aircraft (said to be helicopters) working in the area.

This is based just on information in this article. You might be basing your opinion on more general information?

[1] "...but we can tell you if you come back with the victim, we’ll have you a designated landing spot and we’ll make sure they don’t come over here"

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