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Mark Cuban: High-Frequency Traders Are the Ultimate Hackers

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Re: Mark Cuban: High-Frequency Traders Are the Ultimate Hackers

#111
it seems to me that the exchange adding a small random delay (say 1ms) on message reception would dampen the benefits of speed and then there would be less work invested in saving a few microseconds here and there. you still have program trading but a little bit of silly dynamics is dampened.

Re: Mark Cuban: High-Frequency Traders Are the Ultimate Hackers

#112

Does anyone know if the software used for HFT is built in house or is there a particular vendor that specializes in this particular market?

From what I have read, its all in house, the software (including the mathematical algorithms) is the most important center point of a HFT shop. No vender would sell a competitive software system because they would make more money using it themselves.

Re: Mark Cuban: High-Frequency Traders Are the Ultimate Hackers

#113
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SEO gets crappy websites into Google. HFT serves many purposes, mainly replacing human market makers with computers.

What positive purposes does HFT server, appart from making yourself money at the expense of the stability of the overall economy? """replacing human market makers with computers""" That is not HFT, that is just automated trading. The damaging part if the "HF", not the "T".

The structure of many markets causes trading to be latency sensitive, full stop. There's no bright line between automated trading and hft afaict.

Re: Mark Cuban: High-Frequency Traders Are the Ultimate Hackers

#114
post #76
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> poorly programmed algorithms You're describing the stop-loss orders that non-professionals use to protect themselves from losing money when the fundamentals of their companies deteriorate suddenly. A stop loss is a very simple algorithm that is widely available in retail brokerage platforms. (Example stop-loss order: "Sell when the last trade is 3% below my purchase price.") For instance, you own 100 shares of Pep…

Except that in the real world your stop loss order for PEP probably wouldn't work under that scenario. The price is likely to instantly gap down further than -3%. Or trading may be halted immediately before your order is executed at all. When everyone rushes for the exit at once no market is going to be orderly.

> The price is likely to instantly gap down further than -3%

Right, but in a crash due to news, it is likely to go down and stay down, or at least take some time to recover so you can manually make a decision. In a flash crash it can go down 50% and recover within minutes.

They are different scenarios, and they behave differently.

Re: Mark Cuban: High-Frequency Traders Are the Ultimate Hackers

#115
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take the word "our" out, do you still disagree? One thing you will notice about certain topics is advocates of one side or the other will nitpick inconsequential portions of sentences rather than actually discussing the topic.

Yes, I still disagree. I mean, even without that word there, the same premise is baked into the question the person I was responding to asked. I disagree with your claim that I'm nitpicking and not discussing the topic.

His assertion is that they are gaming the market, with no net benefit to society (it could be argued that their actions are detrimental). Furthermore, bright minds such as these could be doing things that are a potentially large net benefit to society.

Re: Mark Cuban: High-Frequency Traders Are the Ultimate Hackers

#116
post #34

I for one don't agree with HFT. Why should our best hackers and mathematical minds be wasted on something so shallow as gaming the market? Would a small randomised delay introduced by the exchange into each stock trade (or price datum) reduce the incentive for HFT?

I forget where I read this, but in an article by someone else I read something like: "[There's something very sinister about a company that takes society's greatest engineer and science minds away from important tasks for humanity and diverts them to the task of optimizing ads] A lot of people will say what you say about HFT, but have no qualms about Google and Facebook and Twitter. Why is that?

> A lot of people will say what you say about HFT, but have no qualms about Google and Facebook and Twitter. Why is that?

Because Google and Facebook and Twitter provide legitimate value and services (some more valuable than others), and offer something that wasn't there before.

HFT does none of the above, unless you believe that lack of liquidity was somehow a big problem prior to them entering the market and generating 80% of the trades, and skimming off as much money as possible in the process.

Re: Mark Cuban: High-Frequency Traders Are the Ultimate Hackers

#117
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people lost a lot of money during the flash crash, through margin calls, stop loss hits, etc. Well, if day traders lost money, who cares? That's the business they're in. It also called into question the stability of our markets. If people lose confidence in our stock markets, then people stop trading on them. True, but there was a fast recovery, and people are still trading. You mentioned that volume is low.…

It's not the day trader losses we're worried about. It's the average investor who had trailing loss orders in on P&G (just an example) who had to sell their positions at steep losses only to see the market rebound immediately leaving them with zilch. This attitude of "If day traders lost money, who cares" is missing the forest for the trees. Lots and lots of people got screwed by the flash crash and that starts to ca…

That's what a stop loss order does, it gets you out of your position regardless of the price. When P&G was dropping like a stone there was no way to know if the market was going to go straight back up or straight down. If it hadn't been a 'flash' crash but a straight up crash, if at that moment North Korea had invaded someone those average investors would be thanking their lucky stars they got out at only a 20% loss.

You can't have it both ways, either you set hard limits for your position and take the hit when you guess wrong or you let your position ride and risk losing everything. The crazy prices were busted after the fact anyway so if you had a stop loss further out than 60% of the pre-nonsense price your trade never happened.

Re: Mark Cuban: High-Frequency Traders Are the Ultimate Hackers

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why we have Game Theory and Mechanism Design. Mathematicians and computer scientists study the different types of auction methods for their properties. Let's take a look at your example: AAPL is $600 now. (...) If a large institutional investor wants to manipulate the price, he can place huge buy and sell orders at $700. All your example shows is that a good auction mechanism should avoid this possibility of…

Not exactly. In a black box, there will be less orders because market participants are discouraged to be market makers, because the point their orders have been triggered is also likely the point the market deviates significantly and they have no chance to cancel or stop loss immediately in a non-continuous market. Market makers are resistance of such manipulation. And most market makers place orders to fill the "gap…

AAPL is $600 now. (...) If a large institutional investor wants to manipulate the price, he can place huge buy and sell orders at $700.

To what profit? The investor would lose their shirt. Let's say period A had 20 shares sold and 20 shares bought at around ~$600. Period B the investor enters with 50 shares being sold at min price $700.00 and 50 shares being bid on at max price $700.01. In period B there are also another 20 shares from other people being offered at min price $600.10 and 20 being bid on at $600.00. The auction runs and the most seller advantageous clearing price is $700. The institutional investor gets 20 shares from the $600.10 but at the clearing price of $700. The investor exchanges 30 shares between his right and left hands. So overall, the investor has on net bought 20 shares at a ridiculously inflated price. This was a stupid, money losing strategy for the investor.

You know you would sell AAPL if it spikes to $700 today, but you won't place an order until that happens.

Why not? Under my system, at every interval you could simply put a limit order in for selling at a minimum $700. In fact, I suspect a few hedge funds would pop up that specialize in figuring out a true and accurate price of a stock according to the fund's analysis, and then placing, constant, across the board limit orders that would automatically snap up shares in the case of irrationality. If the market was as jump and irrational as you think it would be hedge funds would make a killing by being smart and rational, until enough entered the market with standing limit orders that the price smoothed out.

Without a visible order book, it's much more risky to provide liquidity without any actual demand or supply for the shares.

And yeah, under my system market making actually requires work/risk, not just riskless front running. The free lunch is gone. That is the point. There would be less volume. Buyers and sellers would trade slightly slower trade execution (waiting for the auction interval) for the benefit of not paying any tax to market makers.

Re: Mark Cuban: High-Frequency Traders Are the Ultimate Hackers

#119
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's as simple as all that. There are legitimate parties at either end of a stock transaction, and the HFT's are pretty much just siphoning off small amounts of the proceeds. The reason this can occur is that our government ensures that public companies have to do business this way. And all of these rules are in place for good reasons and it works pretty well, but HFT is an aberration. A good analogy is…

This is flat out wrong. The correct analogy is: Before HFT, to execute a block trade, your only option was to go to a specialised liquidity provider a.k.a your friendly local investment bank - the CC company in your analogy - , who would take a huge spread - the 3%-5% drain on the economy that you mentioned - in exchange for taking that liquidity risk. Now, with HFT, the increased speed of markets has democratised li…

Ok, this seems plausible, however, I am skeptical. Do you have any data or studies proving out these theories, including data that would give credence to the idea that the $ taken out of the market now due to HFT is less than that taken out by old fashioned liquidity providers?

Re: Mark Cuban: High-Frequency Traders Are the Ultimate Hackers

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not exactly. In a black box, there will be less orders because market participants are discouraged to be market makers, because the point their orders have been triggered is also likely the point the market deviates significantly and they have no chance to cancel or stop loss immediately in a non-continuous market. Market makers are resistance of such manipulation. And most market makers place orders to fill the "gap…

AAPL is $600 now. (...) If a large institutional investor wants to manipulate the price, he can place huge buy and sell orders at $700. To what profit? The investor would lose their shirt. Let's say period A had 20 shares sold and 20 shares bought at around ~$600. Period B the investor enters with 50 shares being sold at min price $700.00 and 50 shares being bid on at max price $700.01. In period B there are also ano…

> And yeah, under my system market making actually requires work/risk, not just riskless front running. The free lunch is gone. That is the point. There would be less volume. Buyers and sellers would trade slightly slower trade execution (waiting for the auction interval) for the benefit of not paying any tax to market makers.

The spread earned by market makers is definitely not a tax. They earn the money from (increased volume * reduced spread). Suppose you anticipate AAPL will rise from $600 to $601 based on your fundamental/technical analysis. If there're no market makers, the wouldn't be enough liquidity to inspire any confidence to take the trade. The order book would be like:

            601.00  3
            600.50  1
  5  600.00
  2  599.00
There's no point to make that $1. It's simply too risky. If there are a buyer and a seller they both want to trade 1 share instantly. They pay $0.50 in total to liquidity providers in the market (compared to private settling).

If there are lots of market makers, the order book would look like this:

               600.10  950
               600.05  401
  1200  600.00
   450  599.95
Of course, you will choose to trade and make the $1 if market moves as expected (and a lot of people will make similar decisions). At this time, if a buyer and a seller comes, they will pay $0.05 in total to market makers compared to private settling.

I know that your original intent is to make the "private settling" option available in the market by aggregating all orders in an interval and execute at once. If that really happens, the order book (which is hidden from public) will look like this:

            600.50  2
            600.00  3
  5  601.00
  2  600.00
Execution price: $600.60 (Weighted average of overlapping orders). Volume: 5 shares.

In this case, it seems that both the buyer and the seller received a benefit. But actually it's not true. If your aim is to make profit by selling at $601, rationally you will keep buying until the price reaches $601. The maximum price you're willing to pay is actually $601. However, when you see a selling order at $600, you will place a $600 buy order instead (and you pretend to have a demand only at $600 or below because you know it will be fulfilled anyway). In a non-continuous system, you're forced to signal your true demand at $601 so that you are able to take advantage of favourable prices when you're lucky (and orders get executed only when you're lucky).

> If the market was as jump and irrational as you think it would be hedge funds would make a killing by being smart and rational, until enough entered the market with standing limit orders that the price smoothed out.

They are exactly market makers. The market will be "jump and irrational" without these market makers, especially when everyone signals their true demand. That's why black-box auctions usually yield much higher prices than public auctions when people are rational (i.e. not counting the emotional effects of public bidding). It's just how market works. Similar concepts can apply to free rider problem as well (for public goods). You know that the national military can provide you security worth $1,000 a year, but obviously you pretend to be unwilling to pay anything when the service can only be provided for free. Market equilibrium price quickly reaches $0 with no guess work.

The way market works makes the prices very predictable. Even the flash crashes are smooth (with the market makers). The "riskless front running" is a symbol of market competition. Yes, some guys are going to offer you one cent better, they should have the priority in the queue.

I don't want to comment on the influence in economic activity. What I know is, more liquidity = less risk for holding shares. What market makers earn is not a tax. It comes from the money that bigger market makers will earn anyway ($0.01 spread with 50 shares traded vs $0.50 spread with 1 share traded).

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