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Clojure 1.12.0 is now available

clojure.org

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Re: Clojure 1.12.0 is now available

#111

Post by stingraycharles »

doubleg wrote: post #44
koito17 wrote: post #26

I thought they were going to hold this until Clojure/conj 2024. No particular reason to believe so (besides Clojure 1.10 being released around the same time as Clojure/conj 2021 and the Datomic-becoming-free announcement being done at the very start of Clojure/conj 2023). Still waiting on spec2, though... for now I am working around rigidity of specs by using Malli but it really isn't a first-class citizen in Clojure…

I really wanted schema/select after watching “maybe not”, so wrote a library for malli: https://github.com/eval/malli-select

Malli really is what spec should have been.

Re: Clojure 1.12.0 is now available

#112

Post by delegate »

wiz21c wrote: post #71

Dumb question: what is clojure usually used for ? (in my view, Java is for "enterprise" stuff, python for AI/data sciences, C for performance, etc.)

It's a general purpose programming language that runs on the JVM.

It can easily interop with Java and do the same stuff that Java does ('enterprise stuff' and more).

It excels at handling data transformations, so it's popular for tasks involving complex data pipelines, analysis, or real-time processing.

Clojure’s immutable data structures and concurrency story make it great for building highly concurrent systems, so things like financial services, real-time monitoring, event processing.

Clojurescript compiles to Javascript and interops with it well, so web based front end applications. It's used for mobile app development too.

There are libraries for AI/data sciences and there's python interop via library too, so you can build Clojure apps on top of Python libs.

Native-fast shell scripts using Babashka.

I would not use it for low level system programming (eg. where C is used), but for everything else - it would be one of my first choices.

It's a very pragmatic and practical programming language, with a strong philosophy behind every design decision and the fact that it can interop with pretty much everything makes it a powerful tool in skilled hands. Learning curve is quite steep though, but well worth climbing it.

Re: Clojure 1.12.0 is now available

#113

Post by MarkMarine »

FranzFerdiNaN wrote: post #49
MarkMarine wrote: post #28

This is a wonderful language I've only just started paying attention to, watching the talks from Rich on YouTube have ruined things I loved (like Either types.) I'm struggling with how to introduce it into my company without recommending my colleagues follow my path of working through 3 books and then watching most of the conj talks from the last 12 years on 1.75x speed, while building a personal project and re-imple…

Dont. It wont be appreciated because nobody but you can work on it, and one day you wont work there anymore and the company is stuck with a few projects in Clojure while the rest is on their regular tech stack. You are creating a major company risk just for your own personal benefit.

My goal isn’t personal happiness, it’s improving the code quality in our code base, without telling my colleagues “you’re doing it wrong” or other obnoxious things. I’ll let Rich do it.

I see nil panics a couple times a week, in prod. We could learn the methods and apply them in other languages, like other people said they did in this thread.

Re: Clojure 1.12.0 is now available

#114

Post by erichocean »

uDontKnowMe wrote: post #101
ndr wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clojure is more lindy than Scala. If someone tells you their project is written in Scala, Golang, Groovy, Coffeescript it almost dates the project doesn't it? Not so much in Clojure. It's niche but I can bet it's still going to be there 10 years from now, going at least as strongly as now.

I'm not so sure. I wish it were as you say but there are currently 5600 job postings mentioning Scala on LinkedIn in the USA, vs 82 that mention Clojure. 82! In the entire USA. So even in its state of relative decline, Scala might be about 70 times as used in industry as Clojure is. Even as I flip through the 7 postings mentioning Clojure in all of Canada, only 4 of them seem to indicate the job itself makes use of t…

What Clojure dev uses LinkedIn to find jobs?

I certainly wouldn't.

Re: Clojure 1.12.0 is now available

#116

Post by erichocean »

It's never been easier to turning existing developers into Clojure developers.

A major problem people have at first[0] is just reading the code. AIs like ChatGPT and Claude are incredibly good at explaining existing Clojure code.

As a result, developers can onboard much, much faster.

[0] After a few weeks, reading Clojure becomes second nature and you'll forget you ever COULDN'T read it.

Re: Clojure 1.12.0 is now available

#117

Post by MarkMarine »

defyonce wrote: post #55
lelag wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, maybe don’t. You love Clojure, that’s awesome. But introducing it at your company if it does not have a lisp culture already might not go so well. You say so yourself: lisp dialects like Clojure come with a steep learning curve, and not everyone will appreciate the shift, especially if they're comfortable with the current stack. Forcing it on your team could create frustration, confusion, and a lot of resen…

it is better to have +1 company with Clojure (potentially hiring), than +1 Clojure dev looking for work

It’s not too hard to point to NuBank’s success and say we can be like that, my C-suite is already on board. Hopefully we’ll be +1 hiring for Clojure in the next year if I’m successful

Re: Clojure 1.12.0 is now available

#118

Post by MarkMarine »

lelag wrote: post #37
MarkMarine wrote: post #28

This is a wonderful language I've only just started paying attention to, watching the talks from Rich on YouTube have ruined things I loved (like Either types.) I'm struggling with how to introduce it into my company without recommending my colleagues follow my path of working through 3 books and then watching most of the conj talks from the last 12 years on 1.75x speed, while building a personal project and re-imple…

Honestly, maybe don’t. You love Clojure, that’s awesome. But introducing it at your company if it does not have a lisp culture already might not go so well. You say so yourself: lisp dialects like Clojure come with a steep learning curve, and not everyone will appreciate the shift, especially if they're comfortable with the current stack. Forcing it on your team could create frustration, confusion, and a lot of resen…

I spent a lot of time in my early career jumping from company to company looking for the next better thing, be it tech stack, job title, pay package. It worked quite well for me early on, until I interviewed for a principal engineer role at Branch and the VP said something that struck right to my core… that I had a good interview and good experience but my work history showed someone who wouldn’t be there in two years, and they were hiring for a long term role.

I’ve vowed since then to stick it out, to work hard building something better at the companies I work at, and to make it obvious from my resume and day to day that I care about being somewhere long term. I take the idea of leaving my campsite better than I found it seriously, and if Clojure was just a fun hobby for me I wouldn’t try to introduce it at work. I think my colleagues can learn a lot from the language and paradigms that are at the core of the language, my hope isn’t that we re-write our stack in Clojure, or even that the services I write in it persist past when I leave. My hope is that I can use it as an example to show the other engineers I work with a better way, even if we do it with go in most of the stack.

Re: Clojure 1.12.0 is now available

#119

Post by chr15m »

nbardy wrote: post #97
MarkMarine wrote: post #28

This is a wonderful language I've only just started paying attention to, watching the talks from Rich on YouTube have ruined things I loved (like Either types.) I'm struggling with how to introduce it into my company without recommending my colleagues follow my path of working through 3 books and then watching most of the conj talks from the last 12 years on 1.75x speed, while building a personal project and re-imple…

The way is to drop Clojure and adopt it's principles. Teach your colleagues the functional engineering principles. You can write code that looks a lot like Clojure in any modern language now, a lot of the functional primitives have been adopted in mainstream. e.g. Async/await => channels. I started my career as a Clojure/Clojurescript developer 12 years ago. And now I do python for ML research and Typescript for prot…

> leave behind all the packages on pip/npm

At least for npm you don't have to do this. With shadow-cljs, nbb, and squint, you now have good mature options for consuming npm packages.

Re: Clojure 1.12.0 is now available

#120

Post by ledgerdev »

puredanger wrote: post #22
ledgerdev wrote: post #19

What had become of spec? Abandoned? Any news on hopes for it?

It continues to exist and is in use. Lots of work has been done on a successor, but that is stalled while we consider what we want to do on various things.

It would be wonderful if perhaps the clojure team could do blog posts on those various things, perhaps might bring ideas to come from elsewhere.
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