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Cautionary tale on using Chase bank for indie business

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Re: Cautionary tale on using Chase bank for indie business

#111
This is why Bitcoin is ideal. You can hold and transfer any amount, any time of day, without fear of surprises like this.

Would I use it as a primary cash account for my business today? No, because of the obvious exchange rate/price swings. But long-term, moving toward Bitcoin as a settlement layer (i.e., a modern SWIFT) would solve a ton of problems and avoid situations like this. The more people that do that/normalize it, the more stable the price in other currencies, too.

I get that people like to hate on it because it's not a perfect solution to everything, but in a hostile unpredictable environment, it's a life saver.

Re: Cautionary tale on using Chase bank for indie business

#112
I think this situation, while extremely unfortunate, is just the natural consequences of how banks are regulated in the US. The big banks face a constant threat by the government: if your customer does something illegal with your product, YOU will be fined millions of dollars. Therefore, if your activities have any resemblance of money laundering, they'd rather lose your business than lose millions. Different banks have different "sensitivity", and Chase, unfortunately, is one of the more sensitive ones.

What are the solutions? Laws should be passed to protect customers' rights in the event of an account closure; banks should probably be provided some safe harbor so they aren't as skittish; and in the meantime, bank with a smaller credit union that have a smaller target on their back, and also if something breaks you can yell at someone who can actually fix it.

Re: Cautionary tale on using Chase bank for indie business

#113
post #84
post #10

Crypto solves this. Well, eventually, after initially making it worse, because all your crypto-adjacent transactions in the meantime make legacy banks extra-hair-trigger suspicious.

> Crypto solves this. Not really. It just replaces this problem with a different but equally difficult problem: managing your crypto keys, which is a skill in and of itself. And if you hire someone to do it for you now you are right back where you started, trusting a third party. The right answer IMHO is to do business with a bank that is small enough that you have a contact there whom you personally know and will pi…

> managing your crypto keys, which is a skill in and of itself.

Um, depending on how complicated/paranoid you want to get?

Install the Phoenix wallet app and you've got your keys and Lightning node ready to go, pending added liquidity. Sure, it's not maximally secure, but a person can perform transactions outside the banking system pretty easily this way. No need to so consciously "manage" anything.

Phone not secure enough? Fine – then get a hardware wallet like Ledger.

But maybe I'm misunderstanding your point?

> And if you hire someone to do it for you now you are right back where you started, trusting a third party.

If, by hiring someone, you mean using a custodian like Kraken, then you're still solving a problem by not dealing with the traditional banking system. Sure, you're back to trusting a third party, but that's really not the issue at hand, but avoiding Big Bank.

> The right answer IMHO is to do business with a bank that is small enough that you have a contact there whom you personally know and will pick up the phone when you call.

Seems like a nice idea, yet very optimistic. Is everyone supposed to have a personal contact from within a small bank? Probably works for some people, but involves luck and wouldn't scale. The issue isn't really being solved this way.

The closest compromise might be to work with credit unions instead of banks.

Re: Cautionary tale on using Chase bank for indie business

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unrelated, but I read your book in the 90s as a teenager and it had a huge impact on my life. Still one of my favorite books. Thank you.

Thanks JM. Long time back, and lotsa changes. Cleaning out my attic last month, I just found a stash of punch cards left over from the 1980's. Some paper-tape that has my phd dissertation. And a fortran manual from my high school's IBM-1620. Oh my...

What are you up to these days? Were you able to predict or see the advent of modern AI and LLMs coming from earlier in your career? Thoughts on the future of computing?

Thank you.

Re: Cautionary tale on using Chase bank for indie business

#116
post #76

I feel bad for the people who went through this Kafkaesque nightmare. > After months of back-and-forth, [...] I finally got my money. I didn't find any mention of a lawyer in the article. When you realize you're dealing with people who aren't operating in good faith, seriously consider consulting a lawyer. (A harder problem is realizing when people aren't operating in good faith. Especially if you're a Pollyanna, or…

yeah this sounds like some kind of corporate fraud, i imagine they were blocking people out and moving their money around to cover their own books after something went wrong, there should be a payout

Re: Cautionary tale on using Chase bank for indie business

#117

This is why Bitcoin is ideal. You can hold and transfer any amount, any time of day, without fear of surprises like this. Would I use it as a primary cash account for my business today? No, because of the obvious exchange rate/price swings. But long-term, moving toward Bitcoin as a settlement layer (i.e., a modern SWIFT) would solve a ton of problems and avoid situations like this. The more people that do that/normal…

[flagged]

Re: Cautionary tale on using Chase bank for indie business

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unrelated, but I read your book in the 90s as a teenager and it had a huge impact on my life. Still one of my favorite books. Thank you.

Thanks JM. Long time back, and lotsa changes. Cleaning out my attic last month, I just found a stash of punch cards left over from the 1980's. Some paper-tape that has my phd dissertation. And a fortran manual from my high school's IBM-1620. Oh my...

I read your book for the first time a few months ago after someone here recommended it. I was hooked. It took me back to my beginnings (99/00) when the internet was different, when we had dial up and there was still discovery.

I appreciate the time you put into writing it — and the nostalgic enjoyment it brought me.

Re: Cautionary tale on using Chase bank for indie business

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read to the end? > I want to make it clear that Chase could've been an excellent banking partner. I never gave them the chance. I never told them what my business does or what I'd use the money for. I never talked to anyone (besides saying what I needed to get off the phone). This story isn't a cautionary tale about Chase, it is rather recounting my naivete as a young, first-time startup founder.

Why would any of that be necessary? They’re a bank, not your parents.

Exactly!

Entrepreneurialism and nanny states are fundamentally incompatible.

If Chase or any other bank has to know what you had for breakfast in order to hold your money for you, then you shouldn't bank with them as you'll never know when they randomly decide you took money from a bad man and then hold your financial life hostage from you.

Re: Cautionary tale on using Chase bank for indie business

#120
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You run a business without a lawyer? Ballsy!

indie consulting is pretty small scale

It probably wouldn't hurt you to make a lawyer acquaintance and put one on retainer. A few hundred bucks upfront and you'll have someone you can call to help take care of things like this.
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