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No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

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Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#111

Post by v3ss0n »

krisoft wrote: post #56

> So we both embark on a completely needless adventure of changing random parts of the code and scratching our heads as to why nothing makes the error go away. I end up wasting hours because of a typo. Wow. That's just straight up admitting being an idiot and blaming others for it. If a person leaving out a stack trace causes you to ask for a stack trace that is on them. They wasted some of your time. (Or at least I…

> Software engineering is not a SWAT raid. You can and should ask questions and shoot only later.

Ask Question and *TroubleShoot only later.

FTFY. Nice one by the way, quoted.

Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#112

Post by space_oddity »

rethab wrote: post #29

We cannot forget that we also loose something with working remotely (say more than 75% of the time) and that is the occasional bumping into each other at the water cooler or in the morning when coming in. These are situations you can artificially create by scheduling calls to socialize etc, but that is still not comparable with being in an actual office. By categorically saying no to quick calls, you're isolating you…

Does it really foster collaboration and innovation?

Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#113

Post by RHSeeger »

daghamm wrote: post #33

This may sound reasonable, but the world is not black and white. If we turn every quick question into a complete meeting with agenda and whatnot, the organisation will become extremly bureaucratic. And at some point people will start making guesses instead of reaching out to experts because it is just too much work. So in my opinion, the author is a little bit selfish too. The company cannot 100% align with what best…

> The company cannot 100% align with what best works for you.

There's 2 thoughts in that one sentence

1. The overall productivity of the company may be increased having a single individual accomplish less of their _individual_ goal. People helping each other can multiply productivity.

2. What one person thinks works best for them may not _actually_ be what makes them the most productive. It is a very rare person that works best in a complete silo, separated from any input from others; likely almost nobody. It is an _uncommon_ person that doesn't benefit from some amount of casual discussion about what they're working on. If a developer thinks they are most productive working on their solution start to finish without ever discussing it with someone else; odds are that developer isn't very good at what they do.

Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#114

Post by space_oddity »

prmoustache wrote: post #35
rethab wrote: post #29

We cannot forget that we also loose something with working remotely (say more than 75% of the time) and that is the occasional bumping into each other at the water cooler or in the morning when coming in. These are situations you can artificially create by scheduling calls to socialize etc, but that is still not comparable with being in an actual office. By categorically saying no to quick calls, you're isolating you…

That is not incompatible with adding some context in the "quick call invite". Even when I was working from the office, sometimes I would have to say no to someone who was reaching out to me or bumping into me in front of the water fountain because I was in the middle of something. In that case I would just ask to send me a message with some context and I would go back to him/her when I had more time to dedicate on th…

Exactly, providing context in quick call invites can make a big difference, even in a remote setup

Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#115

Post by twoodfin »

cj wrote: post #5

At a certain point it just doesn't make sense to over-optimize for productivity, when the sacrifice (being pleasant & accessible to coworkers) isn't worth the gain (more focus time coding).

Agree. I think the key distinction this post misses is between being effectively collaborative and adaptive to others’ communication styles (the fatwa against the naked “Hi”) vs. producing back-pressure against organizational dysfunction (a norm that throwing a vaguely titled hour on a dozen folks’ calendars w/no preliminaries or agenda is acceptable).

Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#117

Post by TeMPOraL »

refurb wrote: post #97
LunaSea wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience forced online water cooler talk has never worked and was always incredibly awkward and boring.

You've never been in an office and had a productive, random interaction with a coworker? Like, never? I've had it happen on a regular basis. I see someone and suddenly remember to tell them "oh, I did some work on that long ago, I'll share it with you" or you overhear a conversation about a topic you didn't know they were looking at?

IDK, I spent plenty of time around a watercooler and I don't recall something like this happening even once for me or people within my earshot.

The one thing I saw that actually works like that metaphorical watercooler is going to a bar and drinking together, or engaging in a similar activity that involves relaxing and unwinding. Of course, that's not something people feel comfortable about, plus it comes with its own set of issues and exclusions around time, family and alcohol, but that's the one type of situation I saw where people actually have those serendipitous productive interactions managers dream about.

Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#118

Post by Gooblebrai »

cqqxo4zV46cp wrote: post #55
daghamm wrote: post #33

This may sound reasonable, but the world is not black and white. If we turn every quick question into a complete meeting with agenda and whatnot, the organisation will become extremly bureaucratic. And at some point people will start making guesses instead of reaching out to experts because it is just too much work. So in my opinion, the author is a little bit selfish too. The company cannot 100% align with what best…

Yep. Frankly, these articles are just keyboard warrior antics from introverts that are feeling on top of the world with the wave of WFH. Conflating “what’ll get me back to my IDE faster” and “how can I make all communication so structured that I never have to genuinely interact with anyone at work on a human level” with an actual increase in productivity is just a sign of immense naivety. Thankfully these people tend…

> how can I make all communication so structured

I think this is a really key point. For many developers, human communication feels hard or full of seemly useless rituals.

Making communication something well defined and structured helps to get a feel of control and to deal with it in a less anxious way.

Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#119

Post by PickledJesus »

axitanull wrote: post #106
PickledJesus wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's honest! But presumably you can see that it's at odds with the interests of the business..

Having employees unionize is also at odds with the interests of the business.

OK? But I'm not arguing that there don't exist tensions between employers and employees, of course there are. I'm saying that liking isolation and not wanting to interact with others isn't good for employers, and don't be surprised if they push back on it. It amounts to saying, I only want to do the fun parts of my job, not the boring but necessary bits, like co-ordinating with other humans.

Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#120

Post by lvncelot »

Gravityloss wrote: post #73
rethab wrote: post #29

We cannot forget that we also loose something with working remotely (say more than 75% of the time) and that is the occasional bumping into each other at the water cooler or in the morning when coming in. These are situations you can artificially create by scheduling calls to socialize etc, but that is still not comparable with being in an actual office. By categorically saying no to quick calls, you're isolating you…

I notice I often breathe deeply after a telecon. As if I was holding my breath during it. Even if the telecon was quite laid back. It doesn't happen in water cooler talks. Have there been studies about what causes this, or even how to alleviate?

Absolutely the same for me, as well as having extremely tense legs during/after online meetings.

I think the general phenomenon is often talked about under the umbrella term "zoom fatigue" - besides the fatigue this also encompasses stress and anxiety. (https://spectrum.ieee.org/zoom-fatigue)

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