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The gigantic and unregulated power plants in the cloud

berthub.eu

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Re: The gigantic and unregulated power plants in the cloud

#111
It irks me endlessly that we live in the worst timeline, where the computer equivalent of fuses and circuit breakers are almost completely unknown. Instead we trust code blindly.

This results in almost all of the situations threads here address.

In a better timeline, everyone has stable and secure OSs on all their devices, and the default is for everything to be locally networked, with optional monitoring from the outside via a data diode.

Re: The gigantic and unregulated power plants in the cloud

#112
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We must consider the worst case, which is that the attacker is trying to not only physically break the inverters, but the batteries, solar panels, blow fuses, and burn out substations. Power transformers have a loooooooot of thermal wiggle room before they fail in such a way and usually have non-computerized triggers for associated breakers, and (at least if done to code, which is not a given I'll admit) so do inve…

This is true, especially for low frequency (high mass) inverters. The inverters that are covered here are overwhelmingly high frequency (low mass) inverters. We hope that they practiced great electrical engineering and layered multiple layers of physical safeguards on top of the software based controls built into the firmware. Of course a company that skimped to the point of total neglect on software security would n…

> Of course a company that skimped to the point of total neglect on software security would never skimp anywhere else, right? Right?

At least in Europe, product safety organizations and regulatory agencies have taken up work to identify issues with stuff violating electrical codes (e.g. [1] [2]) and getting it recalled/pulled off the market.

Sadly there is no equivalent on the software side - it's easy enough to verify if a product meets electrical codes, but almost impossible to check firmware even if you have the full source code.

[1] https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Pressemitteilung...

[2] https://www.t-online.de/heim-garten/aktuelles/id_100212010/s...

Re: The gigantic and unregulated power plants in the cloud

#113
post #12

The short version: most consumer and business solar panels are centrally managed by a handful of companies, mostly from countries outside of Europe. In the Netherlands alone, these solar panels generate an output equivalent to at least 25 medium sized nuclear power plants. There are almost no rules or laws in Europe governing these central administrators. . . . The same thing goes for heat pumps, home batteries, and…

The utility company fuse between the property and the 240 V distribution system should prevent overcurrent. If the frequency or phase of the inverter is wrong the inverter might die first unless the network is already down. There isn't really any practical way to prevent overvoltage though. So a rogue controller in charge of all the solar systems in a street might be able to do quite a lot of damage to consumer devic…

> The utility company fuse between the property and the 240 V distribution system should prevent overcurrent. If the frequency or phase of the inverter is wrong the inverter might die first unless the network is already down.

To put it more simply: if the phase is wrong, the effect is the same as a short circuit, which fuses and circuit breakers protect against. If the frequency is wrong, the phase will become wrong after a number of cycles.

> There isn't really any practical way to prevent overvoltage though. So a rogue controller in charge of all the solar systems in a street might be able to do quite a lot of damage to consumer devices.

There is, it's called a surge protector or surge protective device (SPD). It converts any overvoltage above a certain level into a short to ground, which then trips the fuse or circuit breaker. It's often used as a protection against lightning-induced currents.

> A problem from the utility point of view is that they can no longer guarantee that the 240 V side of the distribution system is safe to work on just by tripping a breaker on either side of the distribution transformer. So all work on the 240 V distribution system has to be done with the assumption that the system is live.

From what I've seen, the utility workers usually ground the wiring when working on it (they have a special-purpose device for that). Once it's safely connected to ground, it's no longer live.

Re: The gigantic and unregulated power plants in the cloud

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we preemptively moved everything into VPN'ed mobile network Unless your device itself is handling the VPN, I have bad news for you if you trust the mobile network to not open your devices up to malicious attackers: https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/5g-elephant-in-the-room/

We consider "they hacked the mobile network VPN's AND had time to reverse our protocol before being booted out of network" as too high a level to be resolved by us. If someone has enough resources to do this, he will also just hack into standard-level secured server at municipal office and there will probably be no one there to stop him or discover what went wrong.

reversing the protocol can be done in advance, if they order your product

Re: The gigantic and unregulated power plants in the cloud

#115
post #51

> In the Netherlands alone, these solar panels generate a power output equivalent to at least 25 medium sized nuclear power plants. Since this didn't pass the smell test: the author is looking at nameplate capacity, which is a completely useless metric for variable electricity production sources (a solar panel in my sunless basement has the same nameplate capacity as the same panel installed in the Sahara desert). Lo…

You are talking about energy, which is not the same thing as power. TWh == energy, GW == power. The distinction is important, especially in the Netherlands, which has a capacity factor of only about 10%-15%, whereas most of the US will be at least 20%-25%, which is twice as high. I'm not sure of the typical number of reactors in the Netherlands, but using the US average of 1.6/power plant may not be the most represen…

The point is about instant power injected, not energy, the point is that keep an AC grid at the right frequency it's a tricky business because energy production and consumption must match.

Too much from production the frequency skyrocket, little production the frequency plunge.

Now classic grids are designed on large areas to average the load for big power plants, this way those plant see small instantaneous change in their output demand, let's say a 50MW power plant see 100-300kW instantaneous change, that's something they can handle quick enough. With massive p.v., eolic etc grid demand might change MUCH more for big power plant, like a 50MW P.P. need to scale back or power up of 10MW suddenly and that's way too much to sustain. When this happen if the demand is too much the frequency plunge, grid dispatcher operators have to cut off large areas to lower the demand (so called rolling blackouts), when the demand drop too quickly the frequency skyrocket and large PP can't scale back fast enough so they simply disconnect. Disconnecting the generation fall and the frequency stabilize, unfortunately most p.v. is grid tied, if a p.p. disconnect most p.v. inverters who have seen the frequency spike disconnect as well creating a cascading effect of quickly alternating too low and too high frequency causing vast area blackouts.

Long story short a potential attack is simply planting a command "at solar noon of 26 June stop injecting to the grid, keep not injecting till solar noon + 5'", with just "1 second or so" (due to eventual time sync issues) all inverters of a certain brand might stop injecting, making the generation fall, a bit of rolling blackouts and large pp compensate quickly. Than the 5' counter stop, all inverters restart injecting en-masse, while the large pp are full power as well, the frequency skyrocket, large pp disconnect causing most grid-tied inverter to follow them, there are large change an entire geographic segment of a grid fall. Interconnection operators in such little time do not know what to do and quickly the blackout might became even larger with almost all interconnection going down to protect active parts of the grid, causing more frequency instability and so more blackouts.

Such attack might led to some days without power.

Re: The gigantic and unregulated power plants in the cloud

#116

If the general public knew how fragile the power grid is no body would be able to sleep at night.

Not to be that guy, but the DOE is arguably one of the most important federal agencies in the US, and they treat the problem with the correct amount of focus, research and dedication. It’s just a very hard problem. The grid is no less secure or less resilient than it was 50 years ago, the main problem is that people are more dependent on it. Almost no one buys a personal generator before an outage happens anymore, despite it being one of the cheapest ways to get resiliency.

Re: The gigantic and unregulated power plants in the cloud

#117
If the west for some reason starts to vigorously argue with China over something, we're all completely fucked. They'll just tell our cheap EVs to forget how to brake, melt the firmware in our cellular towers/chips, and toggle our PV inverters off and on at a shitty time.

Re: The gigantic and unregulated power plants in the cloud

#118
Reading through comments I saw a lot of comments confusing cloud security with electrical safety of a system. Electrical protections are completely separate from communication line/ internet, has to be hard wired. As the size of plant/substation increases the automation and control system (again completely different thing from electrical protection) has its own internet system. Burning down substation, exploding transformer through solar panel is very very unrealistic.

On top of that PVs installed at homes are insignificant to cause such troubles. As the size of installation increases, you will have different connection agreement and certain requirements. You can't install 15 MW and connect through inverters that are used at home, which is 100 kW at most. Even 15 MW is insignificant change for a grid.

Re: The gigantic and unregulated power plants in the cloud

#119

Eye opening for me. One of the arguments for renewable energy (besides emissions) has always been its potential for decentralizing power generation. Makes it more resilient, democratizes the means of production etc. This article shows that we inadvertently introduced new choke points. And of course the global security environment makes it more worrisome.

Yes, p.v. have opened the way for semi-autonomy depending on where you live BUT ruling class really dislike this, they want slave not Citizens and tie people to service it's a very good way of making slaves who can't revolt.

That's why instead of pushing self consumption and semi-autonomous systems we push grid-tied and cloud-ties crap, to be tied to someone else service, slave of that. It's the "in 2030 you'll own nothing" already a reality in modern cars, connected to the OEM with a much higher access than the formal owner, much modern IoT and cloud+mobile crap. People do not even understand they do now own, until it's too late.

Another simple example: in most of the world banks between them have open standard to automatic exchange transaction, in EU that's OpenBank APIs, with signed XML and JSON feeds. There is NO REASON to block customers for directly use such APIs from a personal desktop client. All banks I know block such usage. So you do not have all your transactions signed by the bank on your iron, you have NOTHING in hand. In case of "serious issues" you have nothing to prove what you have on your bank, what you have done with your money. In the past we have had paper stuff to prove, we now have signed XML/JSON witch is even better than paper being much harder to falsify, but no, we miss because 99% must own nothing.

We have connected cars with a SIM inside, but instead of having the car offering APIs and a client or perhaps even a WebUI, directly to their formal owner we have to pass through their OEM, the real substantial owner. And we can't even disconnect the car. In the EU it's even illegal for new car to be disconnected since the emergency e-call service must be active on all new cars.

And so on.

Re: The gigantic and unregulated power plants in the cloud

#120

It irks me endlessly that we live in the worst timeline, where the computer equivalent of fuses and circuit breakers are almost completely unknown. Instead we trust code blindly. This results in almost all of the situations threads here address. In a better timeline, everyone has stable and secure OSs on all their devices, and the default is for everything to be locally networked, with optional monitoring from the ou…

it's incredibly hard to implement a data diode for PV systems, enemy satellites can modulate light (like a TV remote, but lower baudrate to stay below the noise floor) and an inverter could decode it and respond accordingly.

They measure the PV panels anyway for MPPT.

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