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"AI", students, and epistemic crisis

miniver.blogspot.com

111–120 of 136 posts

Re: "AI", students, and epistemic crisis

#111

This is a problem for this particular teacher (who sees their students surpassing them in understanding and using AI), but of course it is projected to be a problem for the student. No student is ever hurt by the introduction of a more advanced knowledge system. We heard similar laments decades ago, with: Students just believe the first 10 search results of Google. Those students are now the teachers of today, starti…

> who sees their students surpassing them in understanding and using AI

This would be the equivalent of my saying that a basketball coach is obsolete because NBA 2K is available.

ChatGPT output some garbage, and the student doesn't understand why or how it can be wrong. Presumably this is where a professor would attempt to help the student develop some critical thinking skills.

Re: "AI", students, and epistemic crisis

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, fellow boomer. And who do you think is the populace most likely to fall for Nigerian princes and believe in 5G Bill Gates vax chips?

That there are lots of people who believe in 5G Bill Gates vax chips is itself fake news. It is well poisoning to pre-empt criticism of billionaires with too much power and free time to meddle in African population growth and pandemic response. Supported by "smart" people who want to feel good and trust the science on 5G safety. There are Microsoft patents for microchips to track body activity to reward in cryptocurr…

That's what I talk about:)

Re: "AI", students, and epistemic crisis

#113
post #23

Like probably many people here I still remember having to find facts in books in libraries, before the internet made this skill mostly redundant. Then, as a student I remember having to put together facts from various (internet) sources into a coherent narrative. Now chatbots can just generate text and that skill seems less valuable. I use both the internet and GenAI extensively now. But I feel that having gone throu…

Ok, fellow boomer. And who do you think is the populace most likely to fall for Nigerian princes and believe in 5G Bill Gates vax chips?

People who read academic publications and do not see much of a fundamental difference between tattoos that contain information like a barcode and RFID chips that could contain the same information:

https://news.rice.edu/news/2019/quantum-dot-tattoos-hold-vac...

Or perhaps people who have been confused by conspiracy sites like npr.org and make the mental leap that this would be used for other purposes:

https://www.npr.org/2018/10/22/658808705/thousands-of-swedes...

Re: "AI", students, and epistemic crisis

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, fellow boomer. And who do you think is the populace most likely to fall for Nigerian princes and believe in 5G Bill Gates vax chips?

That there are lots of people who believe in 5G Bill Gates vax chips is itself fake news. It is well poisoning to pre-empt criticism of billionaires with too much power and free time to meddle in African population growth and pandemic response. Supported by "smart" people who want to feel good and trust the science on 5G safety. There are Microsoft patents for microchips to track body activity to reward in cryptocurr…

Yes, real or invented conspiracy theories are routinely amplified and exaggerated by the powerful in order to link critics of $THING to undesirable people.

Mention the word "elites" and you are a Nazi by association. Works every time.

Re: "AI", students, and epistemic crisis

#115
post #23

Like probably many people here I still remember having to find facts in books in libraries, before the internet made this skill mostly redundant. Then, as a student I remember having to put together facts from various (internet) sources into a coherent narrative. Now chatbots can just generate text and that skill seems less valuable. I use both the internet and GenAI extensively now. But I feel that having gone throu…

I also lived through these phases and it makes me feel very, very much the same. On the other hand I cannot not help thinking that this is similar to the arguments brought forward when the internet was new. How could correctness and plausibility be established if you don't have established trustworthy institutions, authors and editors behind everything? And yet it turned out mostly fine. Wikipedia is alive, despite i…

> On the other hand I cannot not help thinking that this is similar to the arguments brought forward when the internet was new. How could correctness and plausibility be established if you don't have established trustworthy institutions, authors and editors behind everything?

Not long ago I had the same viewpoint as you! But thinking back now — it dates me but I definitely lived a childhood without Internet access — probably the optimistic belief before our age of "misinformation" is that, in the marketplace of ideas, the truth usually wins. Goes along with "information wants to be free" — remember that slogan?

For us that grew up learning things "the hard way" so to speak, that made perfect sense: each of us, as should have the capability to discern what is good or bad as, individual independent thinkers. Therefore, for any piece of information, there should be a high probability, in the aggregate, that it is classified correctly as to its truth and utility.

I think, that was to some extent, even a mainstream view. Here's what Bill Clinton's said in 2000 advocating to admit China to the WTO: (https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/library/world/as...)

Now there's no question China has been trying to crack down on the Internet. Good luck! That's sort of like trying to nail jello to the wall. (Laughter.) But I would argue to you that their effort to do that just proves how real these changes are and how much they threaten the status quo. It's not an argument for slowing down the effort to bring China into the world, it's an argument for accelerating that effort. In the knowledge economy, economic innovation and political empowerment, whether anyone likes it or not, will inevitably go hand in hand.

I would say, what we have since learned after some 20 years, is that in the marketplace of ideas, the most charitable thing we can say that the memes with the "best value" win. "Best value" does not necessarily mean the highest quality, but rather there can be a trade-off between its cost and the product quality. Clearly ChatGPT produces informational content at a pretty low cost. The same can be said for junk food, compared to fresh food: the overall cost of the former is low. Junk food does not actively, directly harm you, but you are certainly better off not eating too much of it. It is low quality but has been deemed acceptable.

There are examples where we can be less charitable of course. We all complain about dangerous, poorly manufactured items (e.g. electronics with inadequate shielding etc.) listed Amazon, but clearly people still buy them anyway. And then, in the realm of politics, needless to say, there are many actors bent on pushing memes they want you to have regardless of their veracity. Some people on the marketplace of ideas "buy" them owing to network effects (e.g. whether they are acceptable according to political identity, etc.) in the same way that corporations continue to use Microsoft Windows because of network effects. We also probably say nowadays Clinton has been ultimately proven wrong by the government of China.

Survival of the "fittest" memes if you like: evolution does not make value judgements.

If you ask me, maybe our assumption of de-centralized truth-seeking was itself, not an absolute truth, to begin with. But it took years to unravel, as humans, collectively speaking, atrophy from disuse of the research and critical thinking skills before technology dropped the barriers of entry to producing and consuming information.

Re: "AI", students, and epistemic crisis

#116
post #23

Like probably many people here I still remember having to find facts in books in libraries, before the internet made this skill mostly redundant. Then, as a student I remember having to put together facts from various (internet) sources into a coherent narrative. Now chatbots can just generate text and that skill seems less valuable. I use both the internet and GenAI extensively now. But I feel that having gone throu…

The problem is that gen ai has no notion of fact and will just as happily confidently and incorrectly assert falsehoods. Teaching an entire generation of students with gen ai and no verification of facts will be a disaster.

Re: "AI", students, and epistemic crisis

#117
post #23

Like probably many people here I still remember having to find facts in books in libraries, before the internet made this skill mostly redundant. Then, as a student I remember having to put together facts from various (internet) sources into a coherent narrative. Now chatbots can just generate text and that skill seems less valuable. I use both the internet and GenAI extensively now. But I feel that having gone throu…

It’s something reflected in the conversations I have with my academic friends. I’m told that every essay is written in the same “voice” and that although they are usually a simulacra of an academic paper, they say nothing. The sad part comes when we reflect that these students are not learning the deep thinking skills that comes with academic writing

Then they’re using gen ai wrong. You can dump your research into the context window and ask it to outline the material. What you get out is a well organized story with a beginning middle and end, incorporating all relevant concepts from the research. You can then fill in with the details based on your research. Gen ai can be used to help students think and write more clearly.

They’re going to use it. Give them the training and guidance to use it correctly.

Re: "AI", students, and epistemic crisis

#118
post #67

I would have thought this problem was easy to solve: "Yes, look it up, but remember your source, there is a lot of bullshit on the internet. Especially don't trust AI tools, we know those often return nonsense information." (Actually, didn't ChatGPT have a disclaimer right next to the prompt box that warns against incorrect answers?) So I'm more surprised (and scared) that students don't just use LLMs for sourcing bu…

ChatGPT says "ChatGPT can make mistakes. Check important info." directly under the prompt box. If people will blindly trust a source that explicitly states that it isn't a reliable source, then they've got much bigger problems than AI.

Re: "AI", students, and epistemic crisis

#119
post #90
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the LLMs are still improving at a brisk rate. If they were outperforming teachers by the end of the decade that'd be well within expectations. Anyone pretending that human authority figures routinely get things right is defining correctness using circular logic.

Current LLMs are lacking introspection, plausibility checking, consulting external sources, and belief updating in the presence of new evidence. All of these you'd need to replace human teachers and it's not clear that the next token prediction paradigm can ever emulate these features reliably. So "outperforming teachers", while not impossible, is a very optimistic expectation as it requires more than mere improvemen…

Maybe I was particularly unfortunate, but none of my human teachers had any of those features. There was one inviolable source of truth in my classrooms - the examination syllabus and the accompanying textbook.

Re: "AI", students, and epistemic crisis

#120
post #111

This is a problem for this particular teacher (who sees their students surpassing them in understanding and using AI), but of course it is projected to be a problem for the student. No student is ever hurt by the introduction of a more advanced knowledge system. We heard similar laments decades ago, with: Students just believe the first 10 search results of Google. Those students are now the teachers of today, starti…

> who sees their students surpassing them in understanding and using AI This would be the equivalent of my saying that a basketball coach is obsolete because NBA 2K is available. ChatGPT output some garbage, and the student doesn't understand why or how it can be wrong. Presumably this is where a professor would attempt to help the student develop some critical thinking skills.

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