Live data from Hacker News

US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban

opb.org

111–120 of 147 posts

Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban

#111
post #81
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s always a scam because money is fungible and unless the underlying asset itself is held by a separate entity, you’re always at the whim of the party in power.

Are you asserting that raising taxes is always a "scam?"

Not OP, but tying some new revenue source to some existing expenditure very often is. A classic example in the US would be lottery and casino revenues. Bills or referrenda legalising these (fairly recent, largely since the 1980s) were generally sold to the public as a source of revenue for public education. In the case of California, those services had been paid for through state and local property taxes which were capped (or kneecapped, depending on your point of view) through the 1978 referrendum Proposition 13, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_California_Proposition_13>.

In the case of lottery / casino revenues, the initial messaging was that these would provide additional funds for education. In time, general funds allocations for education have declined, justified by the availability of gambling taxes, funds, and fees. That's on top of further problems and externalities of gambling, including gambling addiction, organised crime, political corroption, and the like.

See for example: "The Big Lie: Gambling and Education Funding" (2012) https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2012/10/the-big-lie-gambling-a...>.

Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban

#112
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we now know about a lot more externalities of this kind of logging than we did generations ago. For example, much of the hydrological basis that provide drinking water to the Seattle metro area was aggressively logged 100 years ago which impacts the hydrology of the basin in a negative way for the purpose collecting drinking water. I think extra knowledge in the space of the environment often leads to indecis…

> logged 100 years ago which impacts the hydrology of the basin in a negative way for the purpose collecting drinking water. Can you elaborate on the problems?

Trees effectively behave as a buffer for the water cycle. Under conditions of high rainfall, they absorb a lot of water from the ground. Under conditions of low rainfall, they must nonetheless continue to release moisture via evapotranspiration, which promotes the production of rain in dry conditions. This mean that forested locations are more resistant to both floods and droughts.

Tree roots also greatly reduce erosion, which means that rainfall is more likely to end up in a few well-established waterways and less likely to be spread across numerous tiny rivulets; it also means that waterways are less likely to change shape over time. Large, stable waterways are much easier to collect water from (e.g., via dammed reservoirs) than small or unstable waterways.

However, I'm not sure how much of a factor erosion is here. I suspect it will only directly impact small communities that rely on minor waterways for drinking water. (Mind you, when small communities connect up to city water because their existing water supply becomes unreliable, that can affect the city's water supply.)

Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban

#113
post #2

The rationale that a certain amount of logging to thin forests is beneficial is correct. I don't know the details, or how they'll administer it to avoid excesdive logging, but at least in California we have almost 3x as many trees per acre compared to pre-white settlement: https://story.californiasunday.com/gone-paradise-fire

The planet was covered with forests before humans got involved in forest management. Why is it a bad idea to just leave the forests alone, declare them wilderness, and let the wildlife and ecosystem return to how it was?

Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban

#114
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless it's a public company/non-profit they don't have to make any of this information public in most(all?) US states. Usually all you have to do is make public the name of the company and the registered agent(typically the lawyer you hire to receive legal notices for the company). They appear to be a private company: https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/earth-force-technolo...

ah right crumchbase - founder with a "crunchbase rank" in the two hundred thousands range, stanford-stanford-harvard. there is something about stealth combined with valuations.. can't put my finger on it..

Well Justin, who to be fair is my buddy, isn't exactly unknown in the valley: https://techcrunch.com/2019/06/12/bird-confirms-acquisition-... | https://www.linkedin.com/in/jadawe

They're building a lot of physical hardware, hence the need for cash (it was a pretty huge seed round) - He's a cool dude for real, very decent human, curious what your concern is?

Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban

#115
post #110
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if America decided to import a lot of Canadian lumber? It's geographically close and the size of the forests are mindbogglingly vast. Could this happen in a way that benefits American construction interests but also Canadian lumber exporting interests? If there's ever some dispute about it could it be mediated somehow? What would the outcome of that possibly be?

> What if America decided to import a lot of Canadian lumber? Isn't that already happening?

yep. in fact, it's the #1 import source

https://wits.worldbank.org/CountryProfile/en/Country/USA/Yea...

Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban

#116
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you and parent comment might actually agree. The 3x trees is an indication of too much, too many small trees, too much fuel. Places that burn and recover lose their "excess" trees. The trees get more space and are healthy top to bottom. OTOH, tree farm trees are bred to have few branches and are planted very close together. Tree farms grow tree trunks, not trees. There is a line of thought, which honestly I t…

Why would you be skeptical of tree farming leading to less carbon sequestering? The whole point of farming timber is to harvest wood which is lignin and cellulose aka CARBON. The green leaves on the tree are not what will store carbon. The green will fall off and become forest duff which gets digested by fungi and bugs and the carbon released back to the atmosphere. Goal of timber companies == make more timber timber…

Only if the timber gets used long-term. I would argue that a lot of timber doesn't get sequestered for more than a few decades because people tear down old houses and build more density in their place on those time scales. And then that old timber ends up in the landfill.

It's even worse for flooring, trim and casing because people rip and replace those constantly over their lifetime because it's all cheap whitewood or MDF now unless you explicitly pay for hardwood.

Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban

#117

The Federal government made a deal with forrest communities. We will have national forests that you won't get any property tax revenues from, but you will get revenue from the forestry, mining, and other economic activity on that land. Then the federal government shutdown most economic activity, and local communities had to shutdown their schools and other government functions (while at the same time losing their lum…

This is not about a deal. Even if there was a deal once, I don't care about it.

I want our government to set policy responsively to democratic forces and in best interest of its citizens.

Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban

#118
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we now know about a lot more externalities of this kind of logging than we did generations ago. For example, much of the hydrological basis that provide drinking water to the Seattle metro area was aggressively logged 100 years ago which impacts the hydrology of the basin in a negative way for the purpose collecting drinking water. I think extra knowledge in the space of the environment often leads to indecis…

> logged 100 years ago which impacts the hydrology of the basin in a negative way for the purpose collecting drinking water. Can you elaborate on the problems?

They are most likely referring to the Cedar River Watershed, which supplies 70% of Seattle's water. While the city spent the 20th century buying up all the land so that it is now a protected wilderness area, plenty of logging happened during that time and less than a fifth of the old-growth forest remains. You can read all about it here:

https://www.seattle.gov/utilities/protecting-our-environment...

Specifically, here is the forest management plan, which goes into great detail about the current conditions, their effects on the water cycle, and the long term objectives:

https://www.seattle.gov/documents/Departments/SPU/Environmen...

I spent a few years in my 20s volunteering for ecological restoration projects in the watershed. We dug up old logging roads, removed invasive species (Japanese knotweed, ugh!), deconstructed landscaping left over from abandoned small towns, did erosion control along creeks in logged areas, restored riverside habitats, and planted lots of native trees and shrubs. I am not in touch with the organization anymore, but I'll always feel some pride in the work we did and a sense of connection to the place.

Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban

#119
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you and parent comment might actually agree. The 3x trees is an indication of too much, too many small trees, too much fuel. Places that burn and recover lose their "excess" trees. The trees get more space and are healthy top to bottom. OTOH, tree farm trees are bred to have few branches and are planted very close together. Tree farms grow tree trunks, not trees. There is a line of thought, which honestly I t…

Why would you be skeptical of tree farming leading to less carbon sequestering? The whole point of farming timber is to harvest wood which is lignin and cellulose aka CARBON. The green leaves on the tree are not what will store carbon. The green will fall off and become forest duff which gets digested by fungi and bugs and the carbon released back to the atmosphere. Goal of timber companies == make more timber timber…

I appreciate the questions and retort. I somewhat agree, but I think when considering a larger context - it changes the equations.

> Why would you be skeptical of tree farming leading to less carbon sequestering?

Two primary reasons:

(1) Comparing a huge old-growth northwest tree that towers a hundred feet in the air, and comparing that to 30 smaller saplings. The amount of carbon stored in one ring of bark of a giant tree like that is immense. The amount of photosynthesis, the amount of total plant metabolism - is immense. This is an anecdotal perspective, but to consider a non-intuitive alternative, there really needs to be some good facts behind it.

(2) The Sinclair quote: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” There is a extremely strong financial interest for tree farming to be considered as ecologically friendly.

> The whole point of farming timber is to harvest wood which is lignin and cellulose aka CARBON.

I agree.

> The green leaves on the tree are not what will store carbon.

While leaves are not the primary store of carbon, they are still largely made out of carbon. What's more, this is a bit to me like saying "your lungs don't store oxygen."

> The green will fall off and become forest duff which gets digested by fungi and bugs and the carbon released back to the atmosphere.

Forest floors do build up over time. This implies there is still a sequestration effect from this alone.

Bringing it back to my skepticism, the amount of carbon in one ring of an old tree, one that is 6 feet in diameter, the amount of carbon in that one ring is immense. The surface area of leaves is what powers all these other processes.

Say now compared to a group of saplings, where half don't make it and are then chopped down and put into a refuse pile. The saplings that do make it are not adding ring upon ring of bark for a couple hundred years, but only for decades, and in much lesser quantities.

> Goal of timber companies == make more timber timber == captured carbon

The goal of timber companies is to grow tree trunks & cut them down. Does that actually sequester carbon though?

Peer comments point out that building materials are not often recycled and wind up in the atmosphere anyways.

Regardless, the impact of going from a bunch of old and really tall trees that have healthy foliage throughout their entire vertical density - to then go to something like a grove of saplings or a grove of Q-tip like tree farm trees that are older - is an immense difference.

First, there is a huge difference in vertical density of foliage. Tree farm trees I call 'Q-tips' because they do not have much vertical density. It's like a grove of bushes that grow tall but never really gain more area for photosynthesis than that. Meanwhile a "natural" forest has trees that are healthy top to bottom. It's very akin to the micro-surfaces in the lungs or gut to drastically increase surface area. It's the difference of the surface area of a pine cone to that of a flat circle.

Then the other side of the coin too, groves of saplings are not fire resistant. Tree farms are not fire resistant. At some point the area can no longer withstand fires because it's all saplings and they all burn clean.

Then, yet another side of the coin, how much carbon is needed to cut down the trees and transport them? I don't think I've ever seen the "tree farming is carbon negative" argument actually take those additional footprint aspect into consideration. It's always a purely mathematical argument based on tree trunk size alone (which is what timber companies care about, they do not care about roots, branches, leaves, forest floor soil quality; and all of those aspects are not counted for in the theory of "it's best to grow trees to then bury them"). Which also comes back to the other point - building materials sequester carbon only for so long - while incurring a large cost (many of which seem to be unaccounted for).

Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban

#120
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> logged 100 years ago which impacts the hydrology of the basin in a negative way for the purpose collecting drinking water. Can you elaborate on the problems?

Trees effectively behave as a buffer for the water cycle. Under conditions of high rainfall, they absorb a lot of water from the ground. Under conditions of low rainfall, they must nonetheless continue to release moisture via evapotranspiration, which promotes the production of rain in dry conditions. This mean that forested locations are more resistant to both floods and droughts. Tree roots also greatly reduce eros…

Sure, but this region is still heavily forested -- just with second-growth forest (trees ~100 years old and not older). Is there a significant difference between old growth and second growth for this purpose?
Post reply on HN