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Why did Tom Lehrer swap fame for obscurity?

theguardian.com

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Re: Why did Tom Lehrer swap fame for obscurity?

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the sentence "8 from 4 is 6" is nonsensical to most such people Anyone who understands "7 from 3 is 6" must necessarily also understand "8 from 4 is 6". Nobody learns how to subtract from numbers that have digits of 3 without simultaneously learning how to subtract from numbers that have digits of 4. > I do think this is a rare case where Lehrer is just wrong, the "borrowing" style is a much better and clearer way…

The whole point of the song is that Lehrer thinks that teaching it as borrowing is so different that it makes it incomprehensible to people. > But I already pointed out that the steps aren't different. They are, with borrowing you make the change to the tens place first, "getting" the extra ten ones, then explicitly add it to the ones place, then do the subtraction. With the old way (Lehrer's preferred method), you d…

> I'm still not sure what they were actually doing with "3 from 2 is 9, carry the one." You could mentally change the 2 to a 12 and subtract three

> you could also take the tens complement of the number being subtracted and add it to the number you're subtracting from

> Or simply memorize a subtraction table, the same way people memorize a multiplication table

Well, you can't take the ten's complement of the number being subtracted, because it's infinitely large. One obvious difference between subtracting 3 and adding ...99999999999999999999999999999997 is that it's possible to write "3".

You definitely can memorize a subtraction table, and that's the approach being taken in all cases you've mentioned so far. Including the new math approach; indexing your table entry under "12" and "3" is not a different approach from indexing the same entry under "2" and "3". As with "borrowing" versus "carrying", it is a purely cosmetic difference, where you have the same literal object with a slightly different name.

That's the reason the textbook wants you to do the same problem in a different numerical base; the author is making an attempt to force the student to solve the problem from first principles instead of relying on a memorized algorithm. This doesn't work unless the student cares about the material. But note that the author recognizes, as you seem not to, that regardless of how much theoretical background you provide for why the subtraction algorithm works, the student won't pay any attention to it unless they have to. And the algorithm itself hasn't changed - what's changed is the inclusion of the followup problem "same numbers, base 8".

Tom Lehrer implies that this approach to pedagogy is misguided; under the old system, students learned to produce correct solutions to subtraction problems and didn't know why their approach worked, whereas under the new system, we asked tricky questions that successfully revealed that the students didn't know why the approach they were being taught worked, and therefore couldn't apply it to problems of the kind that never come up. He is correct that this is pointless; we already knew that the students didn't know why the math worked.

> These might not seem like big differences to you, but they're big enough that Lehrer, and apparently others, felt that people couldn't understand it when one was used rather than the other.

As I just said, Lehrer knew that people couldn't understand it either way. The contrast is between "getting the right answer" and "understanding what you're doing"; there is no implication that people who learned the old approach understood what they were doing. But they got better marks than the new math students, because they weren't graded on whether they understood.

I am aware of one other contemporary record of societal struggles with "new math"; it came up a fair amount in Peanuts. The only example given was the problem "write the 'new math' sentence for 'three is less than five'", and the correct answer was "3 < 5".

Re: Why did Tom Lehrer swap fame for obscurity?

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But he did an excellent job of pairing the elements to the song.

Is that what we're appreciating when we call the song a "banger"? Most people who like the song don't know the words.

Yeah, well, I do know the words, and I can confirm that it’s a banger.

Antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium…

Of course, I only know the lyrics due to the fact that I am the very model of a modern major-general…

Re: Why did Tom Lehrer swap fame for obscurity?

#113
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The "right" way that he presents at the beginning of the song is a way that I've never encountered anyone doing. It's actually fairly interesting: > "Three from 2 is 9, carry the one"; it seems to be a completely algorithmic way of doing the calculation, where you end up with the right answer at the end, but it's completely detached from what's actually happening. I can't understand what you're trying to say. The o…

Yeah, ultimately it's the same algorithm, it's just a question of what are the details of the procedure, which makes it confusing if you've learned one way and not the other. The whole point of the song is that Lehrer thinks this is a new, less good way of doing subtraction. Look at this video if you haven't already: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIKGV2cTgqA The first way he does it seems INCREDIBLY confusing to pe…

> I think the song is very funny and charming, but I do think this is a rare case where Lehrer is just wrong, the "borrowing" style is a much better and clearer way to explain subtraction.

How much of that is that you're familiar with this method (the same way Tom was familiar with the old method)?

Re: Why did Tom Lehrer swap fame for obscurity?

#114
post #90
post #21

The article is nice and interesting but doesn't answer the question of why did Tom Lehrer stop. It's possible he thought he didn't have anything more to say. But I doubt that's the whole reason he stopped making songs and performing. He lived through a time when the US defeated Nazi Germany, and then... hired prominent Nazis to work for them. This is what the Wernher von Braun song is about. My take is, he thinks hum…

What do you mean by "the US defeated Nazi Germany"? As I understand it the US was preoccupied with Japan until the USSR had Berlin within reach. US racial policy being an inspiration for european fascists, like Hitler, kind of makes the affiliation with nazis both in the US and West Germany (and NATO) easier to understand than the USSR keeping some nazis in important positions on their side.

This is just ridiculous, esp. re Berlin. I'd suggest starting with reading about D-day at the very least.

Re: Why did Tom Lehrer swap fame for obscurity?

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have lingering bitterness for the irresponsible New Math experiment in my elementary education. I couldn't tell time on an analog clock until I was 12, thanks to the blithe dismissal of "rote" multiplication tasks.

I’m fascinated - I’ve never thought of reading the time as a maths skill. How does it depend on learning multiplication? (non-American here, I may be lacking context that makes it obvious)

It doesn't; multiplication isn't involved at all.

The only skill required is remembering that the shorter hand is hours and the longer hand is minutes.

https://images.thdstatic.com/productImages/f220d887-1a05-418...

Re: Why did Tom Lehrer swap fame for obscurity?

#116

I still have some Tom Lehrer songs in my playlist. They sound like they're a product of their time but are still relevant today. I am also amused that I learned "new math" in elementary school, but I think it's actually different from the "new math" in his song of that name. I didn't hate it, honestly. "Now the book wants you to do it in base 8." This is actually relevant to my day to day work. (Though in base 8, I h…

The song "New Math" is actually funny to listen to, I think most people don't pay attention to what's happening in it. In the first verse, he's mocking the idea of teaching kids the concept of borrowing, as if it's a bizarre and confusing concept that almost no one would understand. He was completely wrong, of course, and it's the way almost everyone - at least in the U.S. - does subtraction now. The "right" way that…

The only thing I found strange about it was that he started from the least significant digits rather than the most. It's basically the way I've always done subtraction, just backwards.

Re: Why did Tom Lehrer swap fame for obscurity?

#117

Artie Shaw was another guy who walked away from fame, and he was a lot bigger than Tom Lehrer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artie_Shaw Gerry Rafferty (probably more commercially successful than Lehrer, at least) also didn't like the business or performing aspects of music. Bill Murray said (paraphrasing), "I always say to someone who wants to be rich and famous, 'try being rich first, and see if that doesn't get you…

>Being famous is a 24-hour-a-day job.

That's why, people whom are smart and/or lazy won't touch it.

Re: Why did Tom Lehrer swap fame for obscurity?

#118
post #76
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems unfair. He is (or at least was when he was doing it -- he's 96 years old now) a very competent singer and pianist. He's not particularly trying to make a beautiful sound, but there's more to singing than that .

Even he has said that calling what he was doing 'singing' would be generous.

Well, yes, self-deprecating humour is a thing, but there's a difference between Tom Lehrer pretending he can't really sing and someone else claiming he can't really sing.

Re: Why did Tom Lehrer swap fame for obscurity?

#119
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the sentence "8 from 4 is 6" is nonsensical to most such people Anyone who understands "7 from 3 is 6" must necessarily also understand "8 from 4 is 6". Nobody learns how to subtract from numbers that have digits of 3 without simultaneously learning how to subtract from numbers that have digits of 4. > I do think this is a rare case where Lehrer is just wrong, the "borrowing" style is a much better and clearer way…

> But I already pointed out that the steps aren't different. They're the same style. Whether you use the term "carry" or "borrow" makes no difference to anyone. Obviously, it does. Like, that's what the song is about. You're not just disagreeing with the other commenters, you're disagreeing with the concept of the song itself. It's a different way of doing it, even if the underlying principle is the same. This stuff…

It's not that there's no difference in the underlying mathematics. That would be true, by necessity, of any subtraction strategy that worked.

There's no difference in the steps being performed. If you go through each approach, you'll notice that you do the same things in the same order, with the possible exception that carries might appear before or after the actual subtraction with which they are associated. All of your intermediate calculations are the same. Everything you write down is the same in both cases. Someone presented with your worked solution would have no way to determine whether you had "old math" or "new math" in mind as you worked it. Someone who watched you solve the problem would also have no way to determine that, because there is literally no difference in the method.

The "new math" part of the problem isn't that you do the base-10 subtraction differently. It's that you're expected to be able to do the same subtraction in base 8 too.

Re: Why did Tom Lehrer swap fame for obscurity?

#120
post #113
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, ultimately it's the same algorithm, it's just a question of what are the details of the procedure, which makes it confusing if you've learned one way and not the other. The whole point of the song is that Lehrer thinks this is a new, less good way of doing subtraction. Look at this video if you haven't already: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIKGV2cTgqA The first way he does it seems INCREDIBLY confusing to pe…

> I think the song is very funny and charming, but I do think this is a rare case where Lehrer is just wrong, the "borrowing" style is a much better and clearer way to explain subtraction. How much of that is that you're familiar with this method (the same way Tom was familiar with the old method)?

It's a good question, I'm not sure. I do think it's clearer what's going on, and the steps are more obvious. Like, there's a joke in the song about what to do with the carry, if you add it to subtrahend digit or remove it from the minuend digit ("if you're over 35 and went to public school...") which to me indicates that it's rather arbitrary and "learn algorithm by rote". Like, the "borrowing" thing just much better describes what is actually happening, rather than having to memorize a subtraction table and then have arbitrary rules about how to proceed with the carry.

But who knows, I wasn't taught the other system, maybe it's equally obvious. I do think it's indicative that the "borrowing" system is nowadays much more common (that's how I learned it in Sweden in the 90s), which probably indicates that it does have some pedagogic value. I don't think for a second either way is "more efficient" than the other: once you get the hang of the borrowing system, you do it very fast.

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