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Scandal at America's top science fair

karlstack.com

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Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#111

Post by distances »

thriftwy wrote: post #72
pstrateman wrote: post #16

That's not only scientific fraud, it's real felony fraud. Maybe community service equivalent to 50,000.00 at federal minimum wage would sort him out.

The child is nothing to be blamed for, it is a 100% problem of the organizers. For a 17 years old, even throwing together such work is already an worthwhile result. Teens is a golden age of compilation and remixing.

17 year olds are of course fully responsible for their own academic claims and creations. You would get expelled from many high schools for much smaller cases of plagiarism.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#112

Post by phreeza »

rurban wrote: post #107
phreeza wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar word also exists in standard German, where it originally meant "f*cker" but now just means a man who buys services from a prostitute.

Freier is not F*cker, just someone who needs to pay for sex, and is more independent then

No it more likely comes from archaic "freien", which still is used for "to marry" but used to mean something slightly different ;)

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#113

Post by tokai »

eigenket wrote: post #84
nsajko wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fun fact: that's actually a Yiddish word: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/frajer English translation: dope, sucker. As in there's a sucker born every minute : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There%27s_a_sucker_born_every_...

Fun fact: according to the etymology I could find online it's actually originally a German word (meaning client of a prostitute) that was borrowed by Yiddish, then borrowed in turn by Polish from Yiddish and also ended up in a couple of other European languages.

Yiddish is a German language.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#114

Post by jgord »

userbinator wrote: post #43
jgord wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slightly offtopic : there seems to be a lack of articles loosely related to climate change / green-tech on HN... given the amount of new tech and the size and urgency of warming, Id expect to see more discussion/argument. It seems to be a self-censored topic on HN, for reasons I genuinely cant guess.

"urgency"? That's what they want you to think... and yes there are lots of articles but they get quickly flagged by those who don't believe in that religion.

Can you define "that religion" .. I'm guessing you mean "people who believe that climate change / global warming is caused by humans burning carbon fuels and emitting CO2" ..

ie. Im assuming, but want to check, that you are one of the many people who believe climate warming is happening, but is caused by natural processes, rather than human burning of carbon fuels ?

Im aware of polls that show around half of people think that.

If say 3/4 of HN users agree with you, it explains pretty well why articles on climate change are flagged as "political" or such - which is my assumption, after reading your comment.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#115

Post by teekert »

uneekname wrote: post #10

I was a finalist at the 2017 ISEF and it was quite an experience. A lot of super smart kids there and we all had fun living it up in Los Angeles. There was a stark contrast between those of us who had designed our projects completely ourselves, and those who had significant mentors/lab affiliations. No hate to high schoolers getting valuable STEM experience at local universities, but Regeneron should do more to diffe…

Honestly, in my country (the Netherlands) this whole attitude changed within 1 generation. My parents left met largely alone with my school stuff. Now I hear all my friends complaining that their kid's school "is so much work" for them.

Crazy right? When I ask them: Why help them at all (my kids are younger btw), they tell me that "sure we can just not help them, they won't make it into university (but something "lower"), whereas other kids that get help/coaching will."

It's a super bad trend because the parent won't be around after school (during their adult life I mean) and in a way these parents are also taking something away from their kids, namely the feeling that they made it on their own merit.

My generation is also known as "helicopter parents" and this is just another expression of it. Maybe because we have less kids later and those we have (often after fertility treatments) are our princesses and princes? Maybe because we have more time?

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#116

Post by dagw »

_lvbh wrote: post #45
saagarjha wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don’t need the money. They want to win so they can get into college.

Is college that important when you’re already rich af? There are other channels to get in without risking reputational ruin.

Is college that important when you’re already rich af?

A lot of people care about prestige and reputation at least as much as they care about money, especially people who have money. For many people being rich isn't enough, they also have to be seen as smart and successful.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#117

Post by geomark »

nullc wrote: post #42
blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #9

Science fairs always have hints of fraud around them. Many of the children putting out incredibly advanced research, beyond their capacity, are benefiting from their parents’ expertise, or friends of family, or access to labs, and such. It’s not talked about much but has been an issue for decades. As a side note, the criticism around this incident seems to have some racial tones. It’s weird to see tweets referring to…

I don't know if it's still the case, but decades ago when I was at ISEF (and somewhat fewer years ago when I judged...) the judges would get to talk to the students.

I judged at some robotics competitions where we interviewed the students. It was usually immediately apparent if the student had not done the work, and as a result they would not receive an award.

I think that's the only way to do it. The student must be able to describe the work they did. A fraudster might still get through with sufficient coaching.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#118

Post by meisenhus »

snickerbockers wrote: post #30

>Everyone makes mistakes — Lord knows I did plenty of stupid, immoral things when I was 17 — and there is always the opportunity for growth and redemption. when did the definition of 'mistake' change to encompass actions done on purpose? a mistake is when your data is invalid because you did the math wrong, not when all your data is simultaneously false and plagiarized. i don't mean to disagree with the notion that h…

[dead]

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#119

Post by fransje26 »

anal_reactor wrote: post #73
tomcam wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There was a stark contrast between those of us who had designed our projects completely ourselves, and those who had significant mentors/lab affiliations. Said with kindness and discretion. Parental "help", e.g. doing most or all of the work for a science fair entry, is an open secret among Asian communities. It has been for decades. I know firsthand that many Chinese-born parents don't even view it as at all wrong…

Unfortunately, many cultures don't see honesty as a value on its own. In Polish there's a word "frajer" which is an offensive term for someone who got cheated or didn't take advantage of a situation. The logic is that, if the society as a whole is dishonest, then it doesn't make sense to be a martyr recognized by no-one, and it's better to make sure you take care of yourself first.

In Czech Republic, under communism, they used to say:

    "If you are not stealing from the state, you are stealing from your own family."

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#120

Post by saberience »

watwut wrote: post #109
jjeaff wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

any tests will always be gamed by those with the resources to game them. either ethically (through special tutors and private programs) or unethically (cheating).

Paying tutors is not gaming the system. It is trying to learn effectively. I get that one wants to avoid creating a system where students are forced to spend too much time to learn purely for competition sake with no real practical need, but still. The core issue is the pyramid shaped system where not being at one of these super places means that you are out of the competition for best work in general.

Having to pay for tutors to have a chance of getting into the best colleges biases the whole system in favour of the wealthy.

Do you want only rich kids going to college?

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