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Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

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Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#111

Post by noobermin »

CoolGuySteve wrote: post #79
underdeserver wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a very large number of employers. If you want to convince me they're all unreasonable, you'll need to show me some pretty compelling evidence.

They're almost all cargo culting the same whiteboard algorithm hiring criteria for otherwise humdrum jobs so yeah, they're all kind of unreasonable. An HR fad can cause structural employment just as easily as bona fide requirements not being met.

Look at the recent crypto bubble that popped. I'd point to the current potential hype cycle although that's contentious here. For the crypto fad, there was no demonstrated profit beyond speculation, yet lot's of money was poured into it. I have no explanation that can be explained by so-called market mechanisms, it's just chasing hype.

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#112

Post by fatnoah »

stuff4ben wrote: post #34

As someone who does a ton interviews and is usually the one who gives the technical thumbs up on hiring decisions in my group, I've summed it up as Joel Spolsky famously did a long time ago... "smart and gets things done" I just need someone who can learn stuff and has shown technical competence at some point in their career (even new grads). It's definitely harder as a new grad because hey, you have no experience. B…

> "smart and gets things done"

This is what I optimize for as well, and it's amazing how much pushback I get from others on this. I've been hiring software engineers and other roles for over 10 years, and not once did I ever lament that someone "just didn't have enough Python experience."

That doesn't mean that there aren't cases where zero domain knowledge would be a huge detriment, or that having such knowledge wouldn't be a positive. However, there is a tendency to overindex on "requirements" that are really "nice to haves"

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#113

Post by b20000 »

As an employer you can hire people who have past projects they delivered and who can show you code they wrote and talk you through it. You can hire them and fire quickly if they don't work out. Leetcode is useless and experienced people will not waste time with coding interviews. These type of coding interviews ask stupid "trick questions" which have no relationship to day to day software development and attract freshly graduated candidates or people more interested in proving how smart they are instead of people who can build things and deliver. The problem is that once your company is full of these type of people that you will attract more of these useless people (like is the case at google).

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#114

Post by jeltz »

duxup wrote: post #90
jeltz wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One issue is that not everyone loves learning stuff. And since there is no simple way to test for that many instead test for what is simple to test for: trivia. A common issue, people measure what is easy to measure instead of what is actually important. There are plenty of applicants which are simply awful and you do not have time to interview all of them. I am not impressed by the people hiring but I also understan…

>One issue is that not everyone loves learning stuff. Agreed. I do work with some folks who are all "OMG I have to work with this archaic mess." way too often. And I don't disagree with them, but man... not that hard to learn it and code your way out of it. But no they just complain. Hard to really find out who REALLY has the interest in fighting through the unexpected / rough spots.

I personally love working with most legacy systems. It is so satisfying learning all that weirdness and peering into the minds of the original authors to then hopefully get to clean it up and make it better. But of course a handful are just horrible.

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#115

Post by sarchertech »

What really needs to happen is that we need to hire fast and fire fast.

Stop it with the 7 rounds of interviews. Assume after some discussion and basic verification that the person isn’t lying about past experience. Hire the first candidate that passes your bar instead of interviewing and ranking 20 candidates.

If it turns out that you have hired every tech employers worst nightmare, a person with great experience who can talk everyone into believing they know what they’re doing but can’t code their way out of a paper bag, fire them.

Trust me, it’s faster, takes less manpower than 7 rounds of interviews with 20 candidates, and in my experience produces better results.

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#116

Post by samarthr1 »

RandomWorker wrote: post #30

Networking. We need more speed dating with employers and networking opportunities. Every job I ever had came through meeting with people. If every employee would be encouraged to meet with other people once a week it could scale. Maybe you would quickly lose people as well, also a risk.

Isn't that what meetups are for?

In my admittedly limited experience going to meetups, I found that it was a good place to chat with people without major pressure of moving forward. And the cocktail party esque vibe of the meetups I have been to further enhance that idea?

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#117

Post by b20000 »

stuff4ben wrote: post #34

As someone who does a ton interviews and is usually the one who gives the technical thumbs up on hiring decisions in my group, I've summed it up as Joel Spolsky famously did a long time ago... "smart and gets things done" I just need someone who can learn stuff and has shown technical competence at some point in their career (even new grads). It's definitely harder as a new grad because hey, you have no experience. B…

coding interviews do not attract the best of the best

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#118

Post by ativzzz »

rafamvc wrote: post #11
whatever1 wrote: post #3

Tinder for jobs. Swipe to interview.

I'd risk say the dating market is even more broken *because* of tinder.

It just changes the game so that people who learn to play it win even more because most people never bother learning.

For dating (tinder especially), good photos are important. Many people, and men especially, do not have good photos of them. None of my male friends even take photos, and if they do, they are not flattering or of them wearing nice clothes that make them look attractive. Nor would some of them be attractive because they are overweight and not in shape or dress like middle schoolers

And that's just looks.

Interviewing is the same. People who play the game (networking, leetcode, etc) win by getting the high salary jobs, and everyone else has to fight for the scraps

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#119

Post by beisner »

faeyanpiraat wrote: post #68
apwell23 wrote: post #31

We advertised for a junior developer role in April and got almost ~1700 applications in a week. we gave up after reviewing around 100.

As in you managed to find the hire you were looking for after looking at 100 candidates, or all of the 100 seemed unsuitable, and you decided not to even look at the other 1700 ?

Yeah when you have way more applicants than you can possibly look at, the usual strategy is to just randomly sample 10% to review, and throw away the remaining 90% of resumes without even looking at them. This makes intuitive sense, as you do not want to hire unlucky people.

This sounds like a joke, and it is. But this is actually what happens in practice (with less rigorous random disposal).

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#120

Post by lammalamma25 »

GenerocUsername wrote: post #39

At my company we have no issues hiring 50 remote Indian nationals who all have the exact same Java based resume, but we will spend a full quarter interviewing for a senior web developer (non Indian)

This matches my experience. The company I’m at spent money on decent developers to get a project stood up and running, but will only hire cheap remote developers for the crud enhancement work that’s needed now. It makes sense until something important breaks or some thing new needs to be stood up. I’m not quite sure what to make of it.

I sort of see a parallel in the job market although it might be a stretch. Most of the work is easy to outsource/go cheap on, but a small core is incredibly important to get right. It’s not obvious when a job posting is looking for one or the other.

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