Live data from Hacker News

Why Bad CEOs Fear Remote Work (2021)

scottberkun.com

111–120 of 129 posts

Re: Why Bad CEOs Fear Remote Work (2021)

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the position lacks nuance, but I can easily undermine it. If anything, in person work favors people, who rely on relationships rather than skills. Remote is almost the exact opposite of this as it requires a verifiable result.

> Why Bad CEOs Fear Remote Work (2021) This is not a particularly nuanced position either. If you suck at your job you should be afraid of working remotely and working in an office.

I did not claim that mine was right or nuanced, but that OP' claim was easily subverted with similar claim. As for the shoulds, I think a lot of people are afraid of working remotely IF they are held accountable ( I am willing to accept not everyone has the same level of focus, follow through and so on ) . But that is the fun part, management is either unable or unwilling to learn how to manage remote workforce so from a 'slacker' perspective, it is, likely, an ideal habitat.

Why would they be afraid if management can't wrap their heads around it.

But, and I may have mentioned this on this very forum, that is a management failure.

Re: Why Bad CEOs Fear Remote Work (2021)

#113
post #9

I am at a point in my career where I can be selective and only consider 100% remote roles. I am also a manager, so I understand some of the management challenges that lead people to dismiss or be skeptical of the claim that remote work can be just as effective as office work. One thing I will admit: It is harder, as a remote manager, to manage low performers or people who show signs of disengagement. You can get more…

> You just have to have the right people on the team you put it nicely, the flip side is most of companies/teams may not have the luxury to have all 100% right people, they may get disengaged and some of them may come back engaged again. the challenge here is remote work makes it relatively harder to get some of them back on track.

given the current market they probably do.

But when many companies barely respect the employees to begin with, they shouldn't be surprised when the employee disengages and always has an eye on the next opportunity. There will always be other semi-unavoidable issues like pay, location, and personal passions that get in the way, but having some intention to retain and nurture your talent will go a long way. Something that has very clearly shown to NOT be the case these last 18 months or so.

Re: Why Bad CEOs Fear Remote Work (2021)

#114
post #30
post #9

I am at a point in my career where I can be selective and only consider 100% remote roles. I am also a manager, so I understand some of the management challenges that lead people to dismiss or be skeptical of the claim that remote work can be just as effective as office work. One thing I will admit: It is harder, as a remote manager, to manage low performers or people who show signs of disengagement. You can get more…

I agree with you a fair assessment is warranted. Dismissing the downsides of remote work leads to unrealistic expectations/conversations. That said, > You can get more out of an office worker who lacks intrinsic motivation than a similar remote worker. Is this because for an office worker it's harder to disguise the lack of motivation? Or are they pressured into going through the motions even if they don't feel like…

> it's harder to disguise the lack of motivation? Or are they pressured into going through the motions even if they don't feel like it?

As a personal example, it's the latter for me. If I'm having an off day WFH, it's a lot easier to delay meetings or shuffle things around than in an office. I've pushed some meetings back, slept in a few more hours and make up that time either later in the evening or on some other day. Or on the other end may cancel later meetings to just relax later on if my brain is scambled. A lot harder to justify in person. You're there, why can't we meet? why are you nodding off? etc.

>I wonder if this is a good thing at all.

Probably not, but modern work places aren't really designed around "what's good long term for employees". Especially not the US where we barely have vacation days, a lot of passive (or active) aggression around the recent-ish ma/paternity leaves, complaints of burnout are seen as a weakness instead of a proper problem to resolve.

They are fine churning through you in 2 years, laying you off, and training fresh talent later. Even if that approach is horribly unsustainable for building talent and increasing efficiency.

Re: Why Bad CEOs Fear Remote Work (2021)

#115
post #17
post #9

I am at a point in my career where I can be selective and only consider 100% remote roles. I am also a manager, so I understand some of the management challenges that lead people to dismiss or be skeptical of the claim that remote work can be just as effective as office work. One thing I will admit: It is harder, as a remote manager, to manage low performers or people who show signs of disengagement. You can get more…

Agree with this completely. I have found it consistently challenging to create the structure necessary for low performers to turn their work around. We have also had issues with people actively working for other companies while turning in poor work, spending most of their time freelancing, etc. It is hard to correct that level of effort when they think it is "good enough". Sadly the whole overemployed phenomenon is r…

>not because they work multiple jobs but because they are disingenuous about it.

it's definitely a situation with no one coming out looking good. employees should be honest, but bad companies really screwed the pooch being hawks trying to preside over every minute of their lives. messaging them in dead hours of the night, micromanaging breaks, being worried when they leave about "leaking secrets", pressure to work overtime (e.g. stealing their time for no extra pay). There's no way in high hell I'd tell my workplace anything happening outside of it unless it involves extended leave.

But I do think either way that's it's unacceptable to have two "full time jobs" with shared hours, unless all 3 parties agree to it. I have some long term freelance work I'd continue on the side, but that's specifically because the hours are low and I can fit them into evenings after conventional work hours.

Re: Why Bad CEOs Fear Remote Work (2021)

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might be easier to manage if top performers were rewarded in a meaningful way. If the top performer is getting a 3 percent raise this year, the "slacker" is probably higher paid on a per hour basis considering they work less. When the top performers start buying vacation homes and sports cars as a reward for being one, I'd wager the unmotivated might start moving.

It's hard to find a metric that can't be gamed. Otherwise we would not have this issue in the first place. You would also get a lot of office politics and an unfriendly work environment, because everyone would want the projects that would have the highest visibility. All to often there are invisible "heroes" who quietly fix issues, prevent bugs and makes sure everything runs smoothly. They are simply not as visible a…

>What metrics can they use that are not quickly gamed?

You're right, goodheart's law. But I do think the current metrics can definitely be improved.

We can definitely identify "quiet heroes", but people look towards others like them. For management, that's exactly those "high visibility", constantly reporting hype men (who can be high or low performers). Introverted IC's can still perform miracles, an introverted manager who spends most of their times in meeting would definitely struggle. Even if those skills are not necessarily what is needed to perform optimally at some roles, that is what managers seek out of everyone. Because that's how they got to where they were, after all.

There are ideas out there, but ultimately nothing will change until we can at least admit these biases first.

Re: Why Bad CEOs Fear Remote Work (2021)

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Someone who's always getting Slacked with requests and keeps unblocking people won't be doing the work you're measuring, but they're helping 20 people do their work in half the time.

Then what's the problem? There'll be work record somewhere, either emails, commits (if they're software engineers) or system audit trails. Moreover if you ask those 20 people during performance review, it'll clear as day.

>here'll be work record somewhere, either emails, commits (if they're software engineers) or system audit trails.

Sure, it'll be somewhere. Will a manager bother looking around for that when it comes time to layoff? Do they even care about that to begin with? Are they even close enough to the product where they bother to look at something like a commit log? Half may not even look at the dang Jira points they keep forcing teams to keep up with.

It comes down to care, and to be frank (in my experiences) almost no manager cares enough to take that time. They have a lot of other stuff on their plate, after all. They aren't rewarded for retention, they don't necessarily get punished if the companies underperforms as long as they can rationalize a scapegoat. why try to retain these low key "glues"?

>if you ask those 20 people during performance review, it'll clear as day.

My performance reviews tended to be personal, in my experience. a skip manager/director may ask about my direct lead, but other than that I can't recall ever calling someone out (good or bad) during one.

It comes down to the same metric, are those managers/directors going to take the time to ask everone about who they think is an unsung hero?

Re: Why Bad CEOs Fear Remote Work (2021)

#118

Every time this comes up I'm struck by the same thought: do these cats measure _anything_ their people do? And what in the world happens when someone takes off for two weeks to go on vacation? The solution to all this is very simple. Management needs to hold everyone, including other managers, accountable for measurable output. These are usually based on key performance indicators (KPIs) and are semi-standard in many…

That _sounds_ good, and they've been trying to do that since long before Covid forced them to try the grand WFH experiment, but it's based on very specious reasoning. KPIs are not only easy to game, they _force_ you to game them even if you're trying to actually get something done. Not to mention that if a business could be reduced to a set of quantifiable KPI's, the entire management chain could be replaced with a s…

>if a business could be reduced to a set of quantifiable KPI's, the entire management chain could be replaced with a spreadsheet.

we may start seeing that next decade with all the hype tech is trying to inject into AI. It'd be some nice schadenfreude to have the people replacing workers with these machines have themselves replaced by fancy programs that can generate metric reports faster and with less (but far from zero) bias.

Re: Why Bad CEOs Fear Remote Work (2021)

#119
post #43

The hard part about remote is collaboration outside of meetings is hard. Chat is soul-less and leads to a lot of misunderstandings with tone. Video is too formal. Phone is interrupt. For the past 6 months we've been using a walkie-talkie app that transcribes and it's pretty magical. It feels like it's solved some of the issues with unstructured collaboration. Plus the bonus is you can add anyone to a discussion and t…

> Chat is soul-less and leads to a lot of misunderstandings with tone. Chat isn't soulless. Chat being async has benefits over conference calls. > Video is too formal. Phone is interrupt. Work lacks cheap interrupts, which is not a remote-only problem. In my most recent position, when working from home, I've made a habit of writing to people on chat if I can bother them for 5-20 minutes. It works great. I have typica…

>Chat isn't soulless.

I have a ton of chats in game groups, but I've never had it feel active in a formal setting. If you're not in a specific feature channel talking with veterans about issues they can at least start poking at, it's pretty dead. There are times I want to help but am clearly out of my wheelhouse. And then when things do get deeper it usually turns into a DM and that channel goes quiet again.

"noise" on such a chat is much more persistant than in an office, so people tend to not make small talk on such channels, except in off-topic channels. But if I'm being honest I don't wanna browse an off-topic channel at work. I got work to do. That's where the soul starts to leave. The way a company slack works is just very different from some informal (or even formal, non-company) discords.

>Chat being async has benefits over conference calls.

Sure. a paper trail and seachability on slack has saved me many an problem that I couldn't just google. Sometimes without pinging anyone. Sometimes by pinging someone I'd never otherwise meet to say "hey I hit the same issue, is there any progress/workarounds on this issue?" Threads are really nifty ways compartmentalize tangential discussons. Some people (especially tech workers) much prefer to think and write up their suggestion than try and speak it out on the fly.

But I also get that these async benefits ultimately cost more time. A quick 1:1 will always be faster through speech than text, even for someone that can type 200+ WPM (I'm maybe 100, albiet very inaccurate). larger groups is where chats devolve into chaos and noise, and that's when a proctor for a call/live meeting helps coordinate/drive discussion. And as mentioned, tone/body language is absent. They are both just tools, no better than each other as a fork is better than a spoon.

>Work lacks cheap interrupts

Lot to break down here that I won't go into, but yes I fundamentally agree. There is no such thing as a "cheap interrupt" for a creative worker (and yes, tech is a creative process in many ways). You always need to understand that an unplanned interruption is likely costing an hour of creative thinking and consider that before doing so. Many people don't. This is more or less (should be) built into a lead's time when assigning their workload.

With all that said: there are sometimes truly urgent matters where a prompt response is needed. That is definitely where office works shines unless the worker is out for lunch. you never know if a worker who "ignores" a message didn't see it, had their phone die, has chat off/muted, etc. But that's probably a factor a lot of director+ levels face regularly, so it's a mentality passed down to the workers who rarely need to be called on a dime

Re: Why Bad CEOs Fear Remote Work (2021)

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. So if you say can I call you about X/Y/Z, you're asking them to stop what they are doing and listen to your monologue in real time. With the walkie talkie, you hit talk and send them your monologue. They can listen in real time (one-way) if they are available or can listen to your audio + read the transcription (later). This puts them in control of when and how they consume and respond. The added benefit is the…

I still dont get it. That's just precisely the same as sending a instant message but it has an audio option? I've tried doing audio messages before but i find it unbearable - both to listen to them and record them. I just love async text; i want nothing more than email/github

I haven't done walkie talkies, but one thing at a previous job that worked great was an "office hour" meeting. There wasn't necessarily anything urgent, but for an hour a day there'd be a low-priority period to come in and talk about anything from a persistent issue that needs a lead's eye, to watercooler talk.

It feels like a simple gesture, but it solved many issues at once:

- unless something urgent was scheduled over it, it was a period where you'd be sure you wouldn't be interrupting the lead, and are free to ask questions. You never felt like you were wasting their time, it's already baked into the schedule.

- There's a lot less friction just unmuting a mic and talking to a group than pinging a channel or sending a DM, but also a larger guaranteed of a prompt reply.

- it was an informal meeting half the time, so it was a good way to semi-organically team bond compared to leaving a huge paper trail of sports discussion in a team channel. It also means it's very easy to invite others in if their help is needed. A few times, it'd be a "talk" period where we'd invite another team and they use the time to share knowledge of what they are working on.

- even if you had nothing to help or help out with, it was a great way to shadow the work of others and get a feel for how the team overall is doing. The most underrated aspect of an office space is hearing all this tribal knowledge in the background as you work, or during a break. This helped a bit to bring that back.

- Breakout rooms. If there was 2-3 parallel discussions forming, we can simply divide the meeting up instead of going through that weird song and dance of prioritizing discussions (hopefully not dropping it entierly) or booking another room.

Some companies went the complete opposite extreme and more or less made it an obligation to stay on such a "meeting".

Text can solve some of these issues, but if the walky-talky was anything similar to our office hours, I can see the appeal. It could be a generational issue, but you just don't get much "idle chatter" in formal chatrooms in my experience. Some people absolutely love that and lets them work more focused. Others can start to feel isolated from the team and the mission, so that socialization can help break the ice.

Post reply on HN