> The protests aren't antisemitic.
Again. I didn't say they were inherently. But they are attended by antisemitic people and there's a lot of rhetoric flagged there that denies the right of Israel to exist. They fuel antisemitism. Even if you think you and your friends have nuance and the ability to differentiate, the fact is it's a mob that gets inflamed with often ignorant anti-Israel rhetoric (even if you personally are not ignorant it's a mob).
> American university campuses simply are not antisemitic places.
Explain the Ivy league letter. Justifying the murder of Jews?
Explain the presidents of the Universities who are so careful about protecting every other race/gender... Suddenly silent on antisemitism. I'm even seeing it here, I have an opinion which you might disagree with. But I think it's valid and reasoned.
Yet when I was a bit upset because a person here indicated that my country has no right to exist and we should all die... Well, it annoyed me. So dang limited my account. If I would have defended the cause of any other minority or the rights of any other minority to exist in its country, I doubt I would have gotten the same treatment.
The number of people I've talked to in the past year who think Israel shouldn't exist is concerning. The people who repeat racist tropes about Jews is also very concerning.
> That criminal has been repeatedly elected, and has been in charge for much of the last 30 years.
Also repeatedly cast out. He's a snake. To be fair he used to claim to be for a Palestinian state (liar obviously) and voted for leaving Gaza back in the day. The only reason Ben Gvir/Smotrits are in the government is due to Bibi.
The only reason Bibi came to power is due to Hamas. During the Oslo years the peace was working wonderfully. Until busses started blowing up all over Tel Aviv killing many people. Some of them right below my old home in Disengof. That was the Hamas sabotaging the peace by blowing up civilians in suicide bombings.
That helped Bibi get elected on the basis of "safety". Every time he and the Hamas used each other to promote themselves.
> "22% of the way" (not even halfway)
Stop with that nonsense. My fathers family no longer have their ancestral home in Morocco. My Spouses father probably won't be welcomed by the Houthis back in Yemen. I can go back to my mothers family who ran from Russia all the way through Europe losing home after home and most of their family.
Sh*t happened. It isn't our fault and it isn't theirs. We can't go back and neither can they. Keeping this sort of nonsensical rhetoric is redundant.
> Palestinians have given up their claim to places like Haifa and Jaffa
The vast majority of the Palestinians who still live there and are Israeli citizens sure as hell don't want to be ruled by the Palestinian authority. You'd be shocked to know how many of them vote for the Likud party.
> So far, no Israeli government has reciprocated and acknowledged a Palestinian "right to exist."
They exist and Israel tried to do that. The difference is that if the Hamas had the option it would kill all of us. Everyone. They already promised to repeat Oct 7 at least 3 more times.
> You're ignoring the millions of Palestinian refugees who deeply desire to return to their home towns inside what is now Israel.
Most of these lands are long gone. We had 70 years of wars. No way of reaching people who fled to countries that were at war. OTOH the people who stayed kept all their rights and properties. That's probably better than the alternative situation if the other side would have won.
That's how wars work. Every single country was founded that way. If we need to go through the list of the places every single Jewish family lost through history the list would be ridiculous. I'm sorry for them, but there are problems we can't solve.
But blaming it on Israel is low. WTF was Israel supposed to do?
Hold onto land for 70+ years?
Get an enemy state to open the borders to send people, who might be enemies too, back?
Why don't you give back Manhattan to the native Americans while you're at it...
Why not clear Northern Ireland of protestants and give it back to Ireland. There's a huge double standard that people only apply to Israel and no other country...
Why didn't the Ottomans (Turks) give the Palestinians a state? Why didn't the Egyptians or the Jordanians?
They all held these lands.
> The settlements were built illegally, with the express intention of making a Palestinian state impossible.
Some of them were built illegally. Immorally I would agree but a lot of them had legal standing. Flawed legal standing... But legal.
> The Palestinians have agreed to drop their claims to everything beyond the Green Line, and Israel should/must do the same.
That's not how reality works. We might not like the settlements but they are there and some of them are massive. Israel can't clear 900,000 people. It won't. Just building alternative hosing for everyone isn't technically viable. Again, the longer the Palestinians wait with a deal the more they will lose.
History is repeating itself again. Palestinians think they get a raw deal. Choose extremist leader. Fight Israel. Lose. Get even less the next time around.
The reality is that the offers that Barak and Olmert made will probably never happen again. I'm still optimistic to think that a Palestinian state will happen in my lifetime. But I doubt east Jerusalem will be a part of it.
The best thing we can do for a Palestinian state is to help them face that reality.
> Because there haven't been any offers that would lead to a sovereign Palestinian state, as I explained earlier. The most that has ever been offered is a Palestinian "entity" that gets to manage some of its own internal matters, but which is still firmly under Israeli military control.
There are demilitarized states that are doing just great. Hamas is pretty much proving Israels point of the need for that. Imagine living in NewYork while the guys from New Jersey keep firing rockets at your home and occasionally raiding/kidnapping/raping/murdering... Should they have an army too?
The problem is that Hamas constantly tries to escalate the violence to move to the "next level". As far as they are concerned this operation is a huge success. The number of deaths on "their side" is meaningless to them. Imagine them with an army. The results would be catastrophic all around.
> On October 6th, there was no prospect of a Palestinian state.
I would argue that it was quietly moving, but to some degree I agree.
But the fault here was due in large part to Hamas and their never ending rocket campaign against Israel. Hamas is behind the rise of the right wing in Israel and their staying power.
> > Oslo accord started thanks to the PLOs decision to stop the violence.
>
> And then it didn't lead to a Palestinian state.
Partially because of Hamas and Partially because Palestinian leaders refuse to compromise. See above.
> The Israelis have succeeded in convincing the Palestinians that a peaceful approach brings nothing. A violent approach also brings nothing. Nothing brings anything.
Nope. They needed to compromise, they had an option. Just like the Irish compromised on Northern Ireland and it worked out well for them in the long run. You're framing this as if Israel needs to give everything, which is also ridiculous.
Hamas wants the entire country, nothing less. This has nothing to do with Israels willingness to compromise.
> Until the US gets tough on Israel, this will not change.
Do you know the US and UK wanted to bomb Israel?
Do you know Israel survived just fine without their support. The reason for their support is that Israel is a good proxy state.
E.g. why are we in the current war?
The US didn't like the Iranian democracy so they installed a dictator which triggered the Islamic revolution. This cascaded to the current conflict which is fulled in a large part from Iran.
> That's why the demonstrations in the US are so important.
No. They will backfire and make matters worse for you and us.
These demonstrations will probably help Trump rise back to power which is terrible for all of us.
But let's say that your most blue sky wishes take place and everything you wish for happens. Biden suddenly threatens to bomb Tel Aviv if Israel doesn't immediately move to the 67 line and Israel complies instantly. Or maybe a more realistic situation with a long term plan and agreement with the moderate PLO leadership.
What would happen then?
As it is now, Hamas isn't defeated. On the contrary. It's stronger. Once they have a state they will attack Israel again. They already announced it. But this time Israel will be ready and it will be a bloodbath. We will end up in a worse place than we were to begin with.
Political pressure is important. I'm thankful to Biden for putting pressure on Bibi and I hope he'll pressure him more. But this is a very delicate balance. E.g. at the moment the ceasefire offer is delayed by Hamas, not by Israel.
But don't take this from me, take this from him: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/message-from-a-gazan-to...