The unstallable plane that stalled
111–120 of 183 posts
Re: The unstallable plane that stalled
#112Earlier quoted context omitted.
> nobody should be flying an airplane like this so close to the edge the exact stall speed needs to be known numerically within one knot. An experienced pilot can feel the stall coming on with a bit of a "burble" in the stick. My dad (fighter pilot) told me that knowing exactly where the stall point is is life and death. When you're in a dogfight, the winner often is the one that can turn inside the other. Turning as…
Imagine dogfighting in a Cessna! I imagine the arms to be pilot wielded colt 45s and first officer to be a jug of whiskey.
Re: The unstallable plane that stalled
#113Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The pilot had set the trim so that the aircraft would lift off from the step and begin to climb away. The rudder trim was set almost as far right as it could go. The pilot described the take-off as quick and easy. “I let it lift off by itself. It was well-trimmed and it lifted off normally by itself.” Further down. > The maintenance team discovered an incorrect right wing geometric twist, which was unrelated to the…
Kind of my point though. The pilot was disengaged from the controls, and relying on trim settings for takeoff. Regardless of the different roll characteristics, if he had been actively controlling the yoke at the time rather than needing a split second to react and correct, the accident probably would not have occurred.
In my experience as a flight instructor, pilots having the airplane trimmed out properly generally only improved control.
Re: The unstallable plane that stalled
#114Earlier quoted context omitted.
Soapbox next to your soapbox: GA planes are old specifically because of the FAA and their overly restrictive regulations. The cost involved to create an AoA sensor & readout is minimal and at least one company has done it with an IMU only. The cost to certify, sell, and install an AoA sensor (in terms of both money and time waiting to get on the schedule of an FAA-blessed installer) is more than most people find it t…
AoA indicators are able to be installed in certified aircraft as minor modifications, per the FAA policy from 2014. There are FAA regulations that are overly conservative IMO, but I think the FAA has a sensible stance on AoA indicators.
Re: The unstallable plane that stalled
#115Soapbox: Stall speed is an approximation. It's baffling that GA aircraft don't have one of the most safety-critical measurements: AOA. Stall airspeed varies with a number of factors; this includes the mods described in the article, and weight change from burning fuel, passengers, payload etc. AOA is more invariant to that as a metric for choosing stall speed, speed down final etc.
Soapbox next to your soapbox: GA planes are old specifically because of the FAA and their overly restrictive regulations. The cost involved to create an AoA sensor & readout is minimal and at least one company has done it with an IMU only. The cost to certify, sell, and install an AoA sensor (in terms of both money and time waiting to get on the schedule of an FAA-blessed installer) is more than most people find it t…
I also think that these old airplanes are really ships of theseus. Maybe there are some original stickers and seats, but that's about it. Safety and avionics upgrades on these old airframes are definitely in the financial reach of many readers of this forum, and I'm sure many people are flying "old" airplanes that have AoA sensors and IFR-certified glass panels and backups. Day to day they probably feel a lot like airline pilots.
Re: The unstallable plane that stalled
#116Earlier quoted context omitted.
Imagine dogfighting in a Cessna! I imagine the arms to be pilot wielded colt 45s and first officer to be a jug of whiskey.
One of the last aircraft shot down in the European theater of WWII was a Piper Cub that shot down a Fieseler Storch with a .45 pistol. They landed next to the crashed Storch, captured the pilot, and treated his injuries. Then handed him over to the Russians, who I am sure also treated him in accordance with the provisions of the Geneva convention. https://theaviationgeekclub.com/that-time-a-usaaf-piper-l-4h...
Re: The unstallable plane that stalled
#117Soapbox: Stall speed is an approximation. It's baffling that GA aircraft don't have one of the most safety-critical measurements: AOA. Stall airspeed varies with a number of factors; this includes the mods described in the article, and weight change from burning fuel, passengers, payload etc. AOA is more invariant to that as a metric for choosing stall speed, speed down final etc.
Re: The unstallable plane that stalled
#118Just so we're clear, there's practically no such thing as an "unstallable plane". If some pilot believes that then their license should be revoked. Even jet engines can experience stalls internally on the compressor blades, and even helicopters can experience stalls on their retreating blade. I would compare it to someone believing that their car cannot possibly lose traction. Exceptions, which of course must exist,…
Canard aircraft, for example, stall the canard first, resulting in the nose dropping, preventing the main wing from ever stalling.
> If the angle of attack exceeds the permitted limits, some yaw disturbances appear around alpha 25-28°, and at alpha 28-30° there are weak pitch-up tendencies. If the stick is moved forward to counter the pitch-up, the aircraft returns to normal alpha, possibly after overshooting up to alpha ~50°. Note that the angle of attack instrument only shows the area -4° to +26°.
> If the stick movement forward at the pitch-up is too small or is made too late, such that the angle of attack does not immediately decrease, the aircraft departs into superstall or spin. If the pitch-up occurs without aileron input, the departure usually results in superstall. If the pitch-up occurs with any aileron input active, the aircraft is affected by adverse yaw and the likelihood of a spin increases.
In addition to the superstall, the aircraft has two spin modes, in the flight manual referred to as flat and oscillating. The difference is basically the rotation speed and if there are oscillations in pitch and/or roll or not. The recovery is pretty conventional:
> In superstall or spin the pitch authority is good, which eases recovery. Aileron input results in adverse yaw, that is to say rolling right gives a yaw to the left and vice versa. Rudder authority is negligible.
> Recovery from superstall and oscillating spin is accomplished by moving the stick to a position somewhat forward of the neutral pitch position, with ailerons and rudder neutral. To recover from a flat spin, the yawing rotation must be stopped first, which is accomplished with neutral pitch and full roll input in the direction of the rotation ("stick into the spin"). When the rotation has just about ceased, recovery is accomplished with neutral ailerons and the stick somewhat forward of neutral, just like when recovering from superstall and oscillating spin.
In addition to regular stalled attitudes though, the aircraft also exhibits another stalled attitude with autorotation, the "plunging spiral" (sv. störtspiral) which can also be encountered in two variants. I'm honestly not sure how exactly it works aerodynamically. The flight manual says:
> In certain adverse dynamic scenarios, the aircraft can enter an uncontrolled attitude of the autorotating type, here called plunging spiral . The plunging spiral, which can be either right side up or inverted, is considered to be the potentially most dangerous form of uncontrolled flight that has been discovered during the spin tests of aircraft 37.
> The most common form of the plunging spiral is the inverted one. The following attitudes/maneuvers repeatably result in an inverted plunging spiral: 1) somersault into inverted position from oscillating spin (for example while attempting to recover from a spin with the stick fully forward), 2) stalling the tailfin through so-called "knife edge flying". The inverted plunging spiral is characterized by: 1) negative load factor (-1 to -3 G) 2), low nose, 3) very high rate of rotation in the roll axis (≥ 200°/s), 4) high sink rate (≥ 150 m/s).
> Moving the stick back and/or aileron input to either side tends to increase the rate of the roll rotation. The rotation can be stopped by moving the stick fully forward with no aileron input. When the rotation has ceased, the stick is moved back to neutral pitch, and the aircraft recovers to controlled flight.
> The aircraft only departed into a non-inverted plunging spiral on a few occasions during the spin tests. It has not been possible to define any repeatable attitude or maneuver that results in a non-inverted plunging spiral. During the spin tests the non-inverted plunging spiral only occurred on the following two occasions (not repeatable): 1) when recovering from an inverted superstall, 2) when recovering from an oscillating non-inverted spin. The non-inverted plunging spiral is characterized by: 1) positive load factor (+1 to +3 G), 2) low nose, 3) very high rate of rotation in the roll axis (≥ 200°/s), 4) high sink rate (≥ 150 m/s).
> In a non-inverted plunging spiral, aileron inputs have no effect. Instead, the roll rotation must be stopped by pulling gently back on the stick until the rotation ceases. When the rotation has ceased, the stick is moved forward to the neutral pitch position and the aircraft recovers into controlled flight.
Re: The unstallable plane that stalled
#119Earlier quoted context omitted.
Radical has all the wrong implications. It's a "major alteration" in a regulatory sense, done from an approved kit of parts, with a very well documented installation and post-installation operation and maintenance procedures. The aircraft was modified with a Robertson STOL kit. A common type of modification to make to a "bush aircraft". In the USA the modification is covered by an STC (Supplemental Type Certificate),…
As noted in the article, the plane had been modified with far more than just the STOL kit. > A further issue was that his Cessna 185 had been extensively modified. The addition of floats, cargo pack, short take-off and landing kit and a three-blade propeller had never had their combined effect documented. That’s a lot of things that modify the flight characteristics of a plane, all interacting together in what seems…
You are over inflating issues here. Are you a pilot? The issue here is straight up incompetent operation of an aircraft.
Operating a floatplane and separately operating with a STOL kits can increase complexity and risks especially when aircraft are mishandled/abused like here with an incompetent pilot who does not know what they are doing. You don’t need to dream up issues from combination of stuff here, the simple linear addition of issues was more than enough for an incompetent pilot to get into trouble, and seems they are lucky they did not get into more trouble before, and lucky they were not killed.
The C185 is a beautiful well behaved workhorse used extensively in bush and floatplane flying, often with multiple STCs to upgrade these aircraft.
Re: The unstallable plane that stalled
#120So many factors that could be blamed in this story. As in every other aircraft accident. But EVERY plane will stall. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN 'UNSTALLABLE' PLANE. I once overloaded a plane inadvertently, by having a heavy load plus a full weight of fuel. At the point of lift-off, the stall-warning started screaming at me as I started to go into the climb. Training kicked in and I pushed the nose down to maintain…