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Fatal Collision Makes Car-Sharing Worries No Longer Theoretical

nytimes.com

111–120 of 144 posts

Re: Fatal Collision Makes Car-Sharing Worries No Longer Theoretical

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Liability is a function of risk which isn't necessarily a function of fault. In capitalism the returns and risks are, by default, routed to the owner. Shares in a company whose factory gets wiped out by a hurricane you will experience a loss. This isn't the shareholders' fault, but it is a risk assumed by owning the asset. The shareholders could later sue management for being negligent and management could sue the co…

Are you sure your analogy is sound? Ms fong had a 100% share in the car, but she already lost 100% value of the car to an entity at fault which is dead. Like a natural disaster, both entities can not reimburse for the fault, however the ride sharing company has willingly assumed the role of protector in the car case. But now the fault for the damage caused by the car while operated by someone else is more analogous t…

No analogy is going to be apt since this is legal grey area. Ms Fong should have recognised that risk going into the situation.

Absent special laws protecting rental car companies from their drivers' actions they too would be liable for me taking my rental and ramming it into a McDonald's before fleeing the country.

Re: Fatal Collision Makes Car-Sharing Worries No Longer Theoretical

#112
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No there isn't. You neither can nor should screen buyers and renters. This simply isn't your job. And it harms the business the big way. When people rent cars they also rent the risk.

The system creates liability for owners of instrumentalities that inherently create a risk to society, like cars. Should to owners of a coal plant be liable if it explodes and injures people living nearby? Even if they weren't the ones who were operating it at the time?

Certainly, if it was their fault; i.e., if the plant was in a state of disrepair. If the coal plant exploded because the current operators acted in a willfully negligent manner, they should completely bear the cost.

Re: Fatal Collision Makes Car-Sharing Worries No Longer Theoretical

#113

Legal blabber aside, the tone in the article is infuriating - standard US media fear-inducing lawsuit crap. Instead of reporting on the legal hurdles or debating the consequences they just want to send a message that it's "dangerous" to engage in new business like this.

Articles like this tend to create a risk-averse culture, causing people to be afraid of failure. An article that was more negative towards the lawyers/tort law would be much better, I think.

Re: Fatal Collision Makes Car-Sharing Worries No Longer Theoretical

#114
post #76
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't seem any less perverse to me. Shifting responsibility to the operator makes sense for injury resulting from operation. Shifting responsibility to the owner only makes sense for injury resulting from the ownership (improper device maintenance, etc). If you can hold the owner of a car liable for a crash then what stops you from holding the creator of a car liable for a crash? Why not go after Toyota? By th…

If owners are not liable, what stops the owners of inherently dangerous businesses like car rentals from shielding themselves from the inherent risks created by their activity by having judgment-proof operators operate that risk-creating business? The issue here is not regulation of lobbying. It's the very simple fact that driving a car creates substantial risks that have a price. Someone must pay that price. Owners…

Most car owners also don't have a few million dollars in cash lying around, so they are equally "judgement proof". The way we have solved that problem is to legally require driver's insurance. It seems to me that that's a sufficient solution: as long as drivers are required to have insurance, there should be no problem with only holding drivers (not car owners) liable?

Re: Fatal Collision Makes Car-Sharing Worries No Longer Theoretical

#115
post #18

I think she's extremely naive to put her new car back into the pool before finding out how the courts handle this incident.

I think she's thinking logically. From the perspective of a RelatRides lessor, fatal accidents are low probability events. That she experienced such an event yesterday doesn't change the probability that she'll experience such an event tomorrow. She's only naive if every single RelayRides lessor who reads this story is also naive to continue using the service.

I think it would be prudent to not use the service until this is resolved in court. I already was worried enough before this to not use p2p car rental services, but this data point shows they carry inadequate insurance.

Re: Fatal Collision Makes Car-Sharing Worries No Longer Theoretical

#116
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main thing is: - she don't need the car often - buys expensive new car - buys a car that can't sit for a long time If she researched a little more she would have not got a new hybrid but some old diesel. It's probably cleaner than agasoline hybrid doesn't generate all the upfront manufacturing garbage and batteries that are awful for the environment and reuse a car that is already made anyway.

> If she researched a little more she would have not got a new hybrid but some old diesel. It's probably cleaner than agasoline hybrid I was under the impression old diesels were dirtier than gasoline engines. New clean deisels like in Audi's no, but old ones? But you're saying they're cleaner?

Diesels are not cleaner, but it's a complicated story because you have to factor in the process to make a car (and batteries in the case of hybrids and electrics), the fuel efficiency, the emissions given off and the longevity.

Diesels are, however, very fuel efficient and can last a long time. But they give off small particulate matter that gets lodged into people's lungs, shaving days, months and years off people's lives. I don't know how clean clean diesel cars are, but every time I see black soot coming out of a truck, I want to punch someone. That's going straight into our lungs.

Re: Fatal Collision Makes Car-Sharing Worries No Longer Theoretical

#117
I see a lot of discussion of the legal system and assignment of liability. There's an interesting fact about the legal system in non-criminal cases that is widely overlooked--there is usually no possible outcome that doesn't screw someone.

Accordingly, when someone is found liable in tort, it doesn't necessarily mean the court is blaming them for the accident.

Let me give a classic example. Three men go out hunting. They come to a clearing, and two of the men go around on the left and the third goes around on the right.

A game bird flies up from the clearing when the two groups are on opposite sides. Both men on the left fire at the bird. One of them gets the bird. One of them misses the bird but hits their companion who was going around the right.

It is not possible to determine which man shot the bird and which shot the human. Both shooters claim that they definitely shot the bird, of course.

The third man sues the first two. There's no outcome that does not screw at least one of the three:

1. The court could find neither shooter is liable, since it cannot be proven which actually fired the errant shot. That screws the third man since he got shot and cannot collect damages from the shooter.

2. The court could find that both shooters are liable, and make each pay half the damages. Assuming each shooter can actually afford half the damages that is fair to the third man, but screws whichever shooter actually hit the bird.

3. Furthermore, in #3, support it turns out one of the shooters has a lot more money than the other. Then in addition to screwing one of the shooters, the third man could get screwed in that he might not be able to collect enough to cover his medical bills.

4. The court could find that the two shooters are jointly liable, and not even try to allocate blame between them. The third man can enforce the judgement against them however he wants. So, if one shooter has a lot of money and one does not, the third man would enforce against the one with the most money. This is good for the third man as it lets him get his medical bills covered. It potentially screws the wealthy shooter, though, if in fact he was the one who shot the bird--he's left holding the bag for all of the damages.

The way it actually happens in most states is #4. The idea is that of the three men the one who least deserves getting screwed is the guy who got shot, so we want to maximize the chances that he can recover full damages, and can do so quickly. Only #4 ensures that.

As far as the shooters go, if one of them isn't happy with the way the third man chooses to go about collating the damages, he's free to file a lawsuit against the other shooter to recover the amount he thinks he was unfairly forced to pay.

Note that even though one of the shooters did not shoot the third man, it was his shot that created the ambiguity as to which one of them did shoot the third man.

This is called "joint and several liability".

This is a pretty good system. It lets the party that is actually injured get damages quicker to get them on the road to recovery (and keep them from getting bankrupted by medical bills), but still lets the parties that contributed to the injury fight it out among themselves to figure out how, ultimately, the damages should be split among them.

Note: joint and several liability only applies to defendants who do have some liability, as determined by the court, I believe.

Re: Fatal Collision Makes Car-Sharing Worries No Longer Theoretical

#118
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Judgment-proof in the sense that the operator has no assets with which to pay the judgment. The operator here is liable. But if the operator has insufficient assets to satisfy the damages, the owner is a more sensible person to bear the costs of the accident than the injured party.

You're suggesting that the person at fault is the person who has money. This is fundamentally unjust.

When a joint enterprise accidentally injures a third party, generally all possible outcomes are fundamentally unjust. That's what makes tort law interesting.

Re: Fatal Collision Makes Car-Sharing Worries No Longer Theoretical

#119
post #117

I see a lot of discussion of the legal system and assignment of liability. There's an interesting fact about the legal system in non-criminal cases that is widely overlooked--there is usually no possible outcome that doesn't screw someone. Accordingly, when someone is found liable in tort, it doesn't necessarily mean the court is blaming them for the accident. Let me give a classic example. Three men go out hunting.…

I understand that this is a somewhat contrived example used to illustrate a point, but there are many more options available to the court in this case:

1. Both men that fired a shot are found liable because firing a shot knowing one of the men may be in a line of fire is irresponsible and potentially criminal.

2. None of the men that fired a shot are found liable because the third man went into a section of the forest he wasn't supposed to go into because by doing so he put human life under significant risk.

3. The establishment that manages the hunting grounds (a private organization, the state, or even the federal government) is found liable because it didn't properly segment the area to sufficiently prevent risk of human injuries.

4. All three men are found liable because they didn't properly define necessary rules in order to prevent risk of human injuries.

In fact, in this case I'd argue that it's irrelevant which man fired a shot that hit the third man. Either

a) Both mean fired when they weren't supposed to, in which case they're both liable.

b) The third man went where he wasn't supposed to, in which case he is fully liable for his own injuries.

c) A third party organization that manages the hunting grounds didn't properly set up the rules, in which case it is liable.

d) The men were responsible for setting up the rules themselves, in which case all three of them are liable.

If you look at the case this way, you can easily find an outcome that doesn't screw anyone. Someone was responsible for ensuring proper safety precautions, and they didn't do their job. That party (or group of parties) is liable. The others are not.

Re: Fatal Collision Makes Car-Sharing Worries No Longer Theoretical

#120
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If owners are not liable, what stops the owners of inherently dangerous businesses like car rentals from shielding themselves from the inherent risks created by their activity by having judgment-proof operators operate that risk-creating business? The issue here is not regulation of lobbying. It's the very simple fact that driving a car creates substantial risks that have a price. Someone must pay that price. Owners…

So what if ms fong dies next next? Is the manufacturer now responsible since they are the next step up in the ladder of profiters of the car? You could assign the consequences of blame arbitrarily like that but it would have negative consequences on society. For example people would be less likely to do anything since association can now always lead to 100% blame. It's like a mobster who tries to get you to repay a r…

Presuming Ms. Fong was driving, and her death was caused by operator error, she would likely be to blame. If her death is caused by a mechanical issue - yes, the manufacturer could be held liable.
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