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Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

learncodethehardway.org

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Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#111

Post by roopeshv »

dbecker wrote: post #88
Produce wrote: post #81

Why does everyone pay so much attention to what people like Jeff Atwood and Joel Spolsky have to say? Looking at Jeff's resume, he has had all of two jobs in his professional life, one of which was given to him by himself. Joel's resume is similar, a few low profile jobs (MS was not notable back then) then one given to himself. From experience in the industry, it's pretty clear that programmers who stay in one spot f…

Even if you generally trust Linus more than Jeff, on this particular issue people are criticizing Jeff for being too harsh on beginners. Linus is consistently a harsher critic than Jeff.

linus criticizes code when people submit code, and criticizes people when they act like asses. never the people for submitting half assed code

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#112

Post by singular »

There's a funny juxtaposition between Zed Shaw's rather excellent books and what just comes across as nasty, personal, bullying comments and attacks on people.

In fact, around a year ago, amidst serious worries in my life, I read some typically Shaw-ian stuff which essentially utterly disuaded me from wanting to try and do things out in the public arena should he, or people like him, feel like attacking me for producing code that he/they didn't feel was all that good. It was quite depressing.

The irony is that I actually recently recommended LPtHW to a friend who I want to help out potentially get a new career. I love the idea of quality education being free for everyone via the web, and I love the idea that you don't have to be some elite programmer to do it. I think Zed's approach to this is so spot on.

But how about toning down some of the nastiness? You're a great programmer and now, author/educator Zed, but seriously man.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#113

Post by laughinghan »

zedshaw wrote: post #86
prayag wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm refuting his statement that other people should not become programmers, and that only a few chosen few should. But Atwood didn't say that. All he said was that it's a trade like Plumbing and not a life skill like being able to read. >The resentment comes from me talking to many programmers who say the same thing. But programmers DON'T mostly say that. In fact, I had a very animated discussion with Randy Stross o…

The title says "Please don't learn to code". The rest of the post is just more of that in different words. Wow, alright I'm just going to stop replying to people who can't even read the title, but still claim it's not saying what it says.

The title is not a summary. THE TITLE IS NOT A SUMMARY.

The title is a highlight of his article. Presenting the title of his article as a summary, as you do in your article and repeatedly in your comments, is disingenuous and misleading.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#114

Post by Produce »

keithpeter wrote: post #107
Produce wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to disagree with the sentiment that programming has anything to do with logical thinking. You can write awesome programs on feeling alone. For example, when I'm debugging, I don't think, I simply let my mind explore the catacombs and the solution bubbles up from my subconscious. The benefit which logic brings to the table is being able to communicate your ideas clearly. Critical thinking is useful but it's not…

"For example, when I'm debugging, I don't think, I simply let my mind explore the catacombs and the solution bubbles up from my subconscious." http://press.princeton.edu/titles/5896.html Get a copy from your nearest library. You are operating in the same mode as most creative mathematicians. My girlfriends at University had to cope with a shorthand pad and pen on the bedside, and being totally ignored for 24 hours at…

Definitely grabbing a copy of that, I had no idea.

Incidentally, I'm one of those developers who hate intellisense and prefer to memorise the code structure, I guess that's where the priming is happening.

Thanks for expanding my awareness.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#115

Post by sasha-dv »

zedshaw wrote: post #96
sasha-dv wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, your motive for attack on Jeff is self-interest? edit: an elaboration I'm trying to figure out what exactly Jeff wrote that you hate so much. You don't even consider his arguments, you just have "a guess about Jeff, and a general message about other people who feel the same way." Jeff wouldn't write something like this: "Don't listen to the hipsters who claim that coding is as vital as reading, and who claim that…

I believe it is a vital skill, but that it's not being taught well enough so that's why people don't think it is. The same could be said about nearly everything we teach in K-12 at some point in the subject's history. Also, it's not an attack, it's a counter-attack. People really need to get their order of events in the right order of events.

Although, I'm still with Jeff regarding the importance of coding, I want to thank you for clarifying your position and the order of events. Happy hacking.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#116

Post by mitsche »

zedshaw wrote: post #85
B-Con wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a terrible post. He wildly exaggerates Jeff's statements and completely misses the point of it, which was not in any way "no one should learn to program", but rather "don't learn specialized skill sets you don't need". Jeff's point focused on whether programming was the best path to solving a problem for most people, and whether they would actually gain anything from it. His main argument was that programming…

The title says "Please don't learn to code". Holy crap, how can so many smart people be so incredibly bad at reading comprehension.

While I didn’t like Jeff Atwood’s post, I didn’t take the title literally. To me it seems obvious that it can also be read as "Please don't >learn to codeNatural languages are ambiguous. One of the reasons why they’re more fun than programming languages.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#118

Post by bryze »

zedshaw wrote: post #109
B-Con wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is an interesting question, because so many people claim to have read his post yet have no idea what he actually said. Please re-read it. The post title was an exaggeration, like almost all of his blog post titles are. If you actually read the content of the post, you realize that he clearly wasn't actually saying.

I did read it, and he's wrong. That's why I wrote mine.

I think we need no more a concise declaration of your bias than this.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#119

Post by laughinghan »

nboshart wrote: post #95
prayag wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm refuting his statement that other people should not become programmers, and that only a few chosen few should. But Atwood didn't say that. All he said was that it's a trade like Plumbing and not a life skill like being able to read. >The resentment comes from me talking to many programmers who say the same thing. But programmers DON'T mostly say that. In fact, I had a very animated discussion with Randy Stross o…

But it IS a life skill. It's not comparable to reading or writing maybe, but it is comparable to financial planning. People don't learn to write budgets properly so they go broke. People don't know how computers work, even just the basics, but operate these machines every day as part of their work and their home life. Knowing how to use a command line to look for viruses, how to monitor your home network, or even wha…

See, that is a thoughtful, reasonable argument. No ad hominem attack, suggesting someone "[gets] off on making beginners feel like they're worthless for attempting something".

Consider writing a blog post that actually responds to Jeff Atwood's post, rather than a straw man constructed from his title?

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#120

Post by peejaybee »

yo-mf wrote: post #110
demian wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe this post gets the real reason why Jeff said what he said. In my opinion, Jeff projected some of his issues with the current state of the software development profession (mainly the "hack fist, ask questions later" aproach). The idea that bothered him wasn't born from elitism, identity, or the fact that people were learning to code, but the idea that, to him, this makes this issue worse . It's true th…

I realize that you meant to say "hack first", but I think hack fist is pretty appropriate as well. Also, it would make a killer heavy metal band name.

"Hack fist" is what a "brogrammer" uses to pound out some code.
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